American Kenpo or Kajukenbo?

[Touch Of Death]

Here is the thing. Kenpo done well is boring. It isn't big and fantastic; it is, actually, very small but deliberate. Forms are an advertisement, and a big fat lie.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sorry, if your feelings were hurt because you felt I was "bashing" your style. Isn't it more important that we discover the truth about our methods so that we can survive real encounters rather that to feel good about our style choices?

"Discovering the truth" is always a good thing, but this forum does have a rule against style bashing. This is kind of a necessity in order to enable civil discussion amongst a group of highly opinionated martial artists from a wide variety of systems. Repeatedly violating this rule is likely to get you warnings from the moderators and eventually banned from the forum.

In any case, proclamations of "your style sucks," "no, your style sucks!" isn't likely to lead anybody to discovering any sort of truth. What you can do is present specific, objective information. For example, you might say something like "I studied EPAK for x years reaching such-and-such a rank. When I started my job driving the paddy wagon and picking up drunks I had a number of confrontations which typically went like so-and-so. When I tried applying techniques a, b, and c I had learned in class, they failed in the following ways. What did work for me was x, y, and z." In this way you aren't casting judgments on a whole art - you're just providing details of your own experience in a way which might be helpful for others.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

Before saying X style doesn't work consider that perhaps the instructor you had/saw was the one that wasn't very good, not the style.

That's very possible.

I'm still a little suspicious of Ed Parker thinking he needed to create a new style to allegedly address the modern threats in America at the time--only to end up being another empty hand technique. IMO, if there is a "new" system that addresses the "modern threats", it's probably Krav Maga (no, I'm not a Krav Maga practitioner) since that has a lot of defenses against handguns, etc.

I still remember being taught a technique of punching straight down onto a foot trying to kick the groin. First off, unless you're an orangutan, your arm isn't long enough to block like that so you end up either having to bend your knees--which lowers your groin into the kick and gives the enemy even more impact; or you have to bend forward exposing your head and neck to attack. If that isn't bad enough, that technique will get you an injured hand in addition to having your testies smashed. Kenpo seemed to hold that a slap is just as effective as a closed fist punch. That works IF you strike a pressure point. In general, if that were true, western boxing would be a slap fight instead of a slugfest since that art is all about the most effective, powerful hand strikes. These are the types of things I saw in American Kenpo. I wasn't impressed.

If it works for you in a real fight, then I'd say you're lucky. Keep doing it. Of course, seeing that the majority of street fights against untrained assailants are usually you being attacked by someone trying to box, nearly any karate will be somewhat effective in many situations as long as you can avoid taking a punch on the chin.

BTW, I'm not saying all styles but mine suck. I'm saying that I'm not impressed with American Kenpo and don't trust it to save me time after time. If it gets you out of trouble, that's good. I don't have faith in that specific system. Honestly, I don't see how I'm "style bashing". I'm not here to be a troll or to specifically insult any individuals. I'm really just trying to point out to a prospective student to proceed with caution because the system seems unreliable to me and the way that it came about seems questionable.

That's really all I have to say on it.
I do appreciate the politeness you guys have used in your replies and warnings.


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[Kenpoguy123]

That's very possible.

I'm still a little suspicious of Ed Parker thinking he needed to create a new style to allegedly address the modern threats in America at the time--only to end up being another empty hand technique. IMO, if there is a "new" system that addresses the "modern threats", it's probably Krav Maga (no, I'm not a Krav Maga practitioner) since that has a lot of defenses against handguns, etc.

I still remember being taught a technique of punching straight down onto a foot trying to kick the groin. First off, unless you're an orangutan, your arm isn't long enough to block like that so you end up either having to bend your knees--which lowers your groin into the kick and gives the enemy even more impact; or you have to bend forward exposing your head and neck to attack. If that isn't bad enough, that technique will get you an injured hand in addition to having your testies smashed. Kenpo seemed to hold that a slap is just as effective as a closed fist punch. That works IF you strike a pressure point. In general, if that were true, western boxing would be a slap fight instead of a slugfest since that art is all about the most effective, powerful hand strikes. These are the types of things I saw in American Kenpo. I wasn't impressed.

If it works for you in a real fight, then I'd say you're lucky. Keep doing it. Of course, seeing that the majority of street fights against untrained assailants are usually you being attacked by someone trying to box, nearly any karate will be somewhat effective in many situations as long as you can avoid taking a punch on the chin.


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Right sorry but is no techique where you reach down and punch the foot and I know every techique in the system there's none like that so either you're lying, you forgot or your teacher was incompetent

 

[Touch Of Death]

Right sorry but is no techique where you reach down and punch the foot and I know every techique in the system there's none like that so either you're lying, you forgot or your teacher was incompetent

Yeah, that was escaping my memory, too.

 

[moonhill99]

Also Kajukenbo and Enshin karate seems to emphasis more takes downs and throws than American Kenpo. So Kajukenbo and Enshin karate may blend better with Judo than American Kenpo.

 

[moonhill99]

Before saying X style doesn't work consider that perhaps the instructor you had/saw was the one that wasn't very good, not the style.

Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.

If the schools teaching American Kenpo are moving slow like this?

May be okay for beginners learning the techniques. But if you don't practice your fighting moving fast and hitting hard and always hitting soft not going to go well.

If the attacker is moving low and not moving around much not going to go well in streets with the attacker is moving fast.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.

If the schools teaching American Kenpo are moving slow like this?

May be okay for beginners learning the techniques. But if you don't practice your fighting moving fast and hitting hard and always hitting soft not going to go well.

If the attacker is moving low and not moving around much not going to go well in streets with the attacker is moving fast.

That Kenpoist has a very unique way of doing Kenpo, and is the head of just organization, of several. You can't accuse every kenpoist of moving like that because, most of us don't.

 

[Tez3]

Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.

You could just stop watching videos of other people, they rarely encompass the whole of a style and anyway you should be busy training in your own style to make comparisons with others.

 

[Tames D]

Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.

If the schools teaching American Kenpo are moving slow like this?

May be okay for beginners learning the techniques. But if you don't practice your fighting moving fast and hitting hard and always hitting soft not going to go well.

If the attacker is moving low and not moving around much not going to go well in streets with the attacker is moving fast.

I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying Larry Tatum is slow? Far from it.

 

[Tames D]

BTW, I'm not saying all styles but mine suck.
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You may have mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, but what style/system do you train in?

 

[Tired_Yeti]

You may have mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, but what style/system do you train in?

I didn't mention it. In fact, other than mentioning that I had trained in Kenpo, I didn't mention any other styles I've studied so that there would be no wind in the sails of the "all styles but mine suck" accusation.


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[Tired_Yeti]

Yep I was right you didn't understand it. Do you really think that the techniques would work exactly as their taught of course not anyone who believe it is just stupid...

Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot.
Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.

Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.




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[Tired_Yeti]

Right sorry but is no techique where you reach down and punch the foot and I know every techique in the system there's none like that so either you're lying, you forgot or your teacher was incompetent

Well, I didn't forget and I'm certainly not lying (there's no need for that--I'm not promoting another style, just discussing this one). Incompetent teacher? That's quite possible and maybe likely.
I did see Jeff Speakman demonstrate punching a shin that was kicking at his head (Perfect Weapon) which is not exactly the same by similar. That would likely get you an injured, if not broken, hand. Granted, that was a movie but he was displaying American Kenpo, right?
Or are we now going to say that Jeff Speakman doesn't do Kenpo?

You guys raise an interesting point. If a practitioner is "incompetent", then how/why would he be promoted to black belt and endorsed to teach?
Sorry, but that too turns me off of Kenpo.


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[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I didn't mention it. In fact, other than mentioning that I had trained in Kenpo, I didn't mention any other styles I've studied so that there would be no wind in the sails of the "all styles but mine suck" accusation.


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That is an insane amount of snark responding to someone asking one of the most common questions on this forum. Although considering your responses to Kenpoguy123 I'm not really surprised.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot.
Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.

Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.




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You should leave.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

That is an insane amount of snark responding to someone asking one of the most common questions on this forum. Although considering your responses to Kenpoguy123 I'm not really surprised.

It's wasn't meant to be snarky. I was explaining why I didn't mention it in this thread. I have discuss it elsewhere, but in this thread I was talking about my opinion of American Kenpo for street fighting. I not trying to compare it to any other specific style.

At any rate, if you like Am. Kenpo, keep doing it. You'll either need it or you won't. If you do, you'll be able to decide for yourself.


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[Touch Of Death]

It's wasn't meant to be snarky. I was explaining why I didn't mention it in this thread. I have discuss it elsewhere, but in this thread I was talking about my opinion of American Kenpo for street fighting. I not trying to compare it to any other specific style.

At any rate, if you like Am. Kenpo, keep doing it. You'll either need it or you won't. If you do, you'll be able to decide for yourself.


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You took a bad kenpo. It happens. Every other kenpo just uses Techniques as an exercise.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

Well, I didn't forget and I'm certainly not lying (there's no need for that--I'm not promoting another style, just discussing this one). Incompetent teacher? That's quite possible and maybe likely.
I did see Jeff Speakman demonstrate punching a shin that was kicking at his head (Perfect Weapon) which is not exactly the same by similar. That would likely get you an injured, if not broken, hand. Granted, that was a movie but he was displaying American Kenpo, right?
Or are we now going to say that Jeff Speakman doesn't do Kenpo?

You guys raise an interesting point. If a practitioner is "incompetent", then how/why would he be promoted to black belt and endorsed to teach?
Sorry, but that too turns me off of Kenpo.


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First the perfect weapon is a movie I.e not real second I've seen it and he didnt punch the shin he punched the meat of the leg behind the shin which is a lot softer can't think of the actual name I've got a blank spot right now.

Umm yeah because kenpo e the only style in the world to have incompetent black belts right?

There are fakes in every single martial art and yes kenpos not perfect I know that because Nothing is perfect but the techniques are not to be followed step by step in a street fight they are to be adapted and changed to what you need.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's the thing: no matter how much you hate it, someone else loves it. No matter how much you think it's useless, someone else can kick *** with it.

Decide for yourself and leave others to do the same. You'll never never convince the masses, on an Internet forum.