Aikido and Sparring

[Budo_NJ]

I've recently been wondering why there is no sparring in all styles of Aikido (other than the Shodokan/Tomiki style). I've been training in Aikido for about 2 years and after recently watching a karate competition I realized a couples of things:

1. The strict forms that they practice seemed to have almost no connection to sparring.
2. The competitors' bounced and took on quick, boxer-like movements.

This made me wonder how I would react when in the same situation. How would I move when I didn't know when/where an attack was coming? How would the pressure of an actual fight psychologically effect my Aikido? Wouldn't sparring help strengthen technique and point out weaknesses?

I'm not talking about formal competitions. I'm just suggesting that sparring might enhance the Aikido curriculum.

Any thoughts?

 

[Monadnock]

If the Aikido folk already believe they are teaching everything they want to teach, there really isn't anything you can add to it, and if you do, maybe it isn't Aikido.

If you think YOU need more training to handle different situations, then that is different. You would obviously need more than Aikido training. Ya dig?

 

[theletch1]

I dig! And keep on digging. To answer the original question...there is no sparring in the vast majority of aikido styles because aikido is a defensive rather than offensive art. It wouldn't be a very exciting match if both parties involved just stood there waiting for their opponent to give them some energy to work with. Many aikido schools do practice what is called aiki-kuma-kata which is where both aikido-ka take turns attacking and defending at as fast a pace as they can manage. It's as close to sparring as it's likely to get.

Monadnock, you're post is an excellent one. The big point being that it is what they WANT to teach. There are many many different sub-styles of aikido for a reason...few can agree on exactly what aikido truly is. I've always been one to encourage folks to cross train in any other art that strikes their fancy once they've got a good understanding of aikido. As much as I love my aikido I'll be one of the first to tell you that the art is not a complete art. There are those that will disagree with me and say that I simply haven't grasped the deeper meaning of many of the techniques. Fair enough. That would still mean that aikido is not a complete art FOR ME yet. Dig...and keep digging. Curiosity is a great thing when it leads to learning something new.

 

[charyuop]

I think that the problem is Aikido is hard to use in sparring. My Senpai told me that few years ago him and another guy (don't know if back then black belt yet or not) where doing a free sparring, without knowing attacks of the opponent. It all went smooth till a point they both got at a stall point. Instead of doing what Aikido says the situation created tension in the both of them. The resistance that Senpai opponent put in the sparring made so that his knee popped in a couple of seconds.

While I agree it is dangerous a full sparring in Aikido, I also see the utility. I haven't been training long and never trained before in other Martial Arts, but at work I have a co-worker that does MMA. Sometimes he jokingly attacks me without actually touching me. I wouldn't be able to counter attack any single one of his attacks. That is not due to the fact that MMA is better than Aikido, but it is due to the fact that I have never trained to receive an attack where I do not know in advance what kind of attack it is and where it comes from.
Maybe things will change in the furute and I remember Sensei mentioning once a free sparring, but so far yes, I am learning techniques, but not actually how to respond to a sudden attack.

This is not really a problem to me because I love the Art and I don't actually espect to get into a fight above all in a small town like the one where I live, but I see what Budo N_J means...

 

[scottcatchot]

Good responses. At our Dojo we also practice randori with one or multiple attackers attacking with whatever attack they desire and you have to defend. It is especially fun and difficult when there is multiple attackers. You learn to use your throws to position the attacker between you and the other attackers to gain room for your slef to keep defending.

It is wisdom to practice techniques with a somewhat less cooperative uke to make sure you actually "get" the technique. There are benefits to reality based training that lacks in traditional settings that can be added yuorself to help flesh out your "martial skills'

 

[cstanley]

"Ai" "Ki"...a joining or harmonious blending of energy. Sparring, as in atemi based arts is completely foreign to the aiki concept. Pure aikido (not the modern hybrids that try to include punches, kicks, etc.) is non-competitive and non-confrontational. It is mind-body contemplative art. If someone wants a combat art and appreciates aikido, then they need to seek out a Daito ryu dojo. If you want an atemi art that has an explicit spiritual component, I would suggest Shorinji Kempo (the real Shorinjo Kempo of Doshin So, not the hybridized crap). It is a bit weird for me, but I have seen them do some impressive demos over the years.

 

[charyuop]

"Ai" "Ki"...a joining or harmonious blending of energy. Sparring, as in atemi based arts is completely foreign to the aiki concept. Pure aikido (not the modern hybrids that try to include punches, kicks, etc.) is non-competitive and non-confrontational. It is mind-body contemplative art. If someone wants a combat art and appreciates aikido, then they need to seek out a Daito ryu dojo. If you want an atemi art that has an explicit spiritual component, I would suggest Shorinji Kempo (the real Shorinjo Kempo of Doshin So, not the hybridized crap). It is a bit weird for me, but I have seen them do some impressive demos over the years.

And if you want a church it is the first corner to the right...
Sorry, but I got tired of reading this way of interpreting Aikido. You want to believe it like that fine, but do not say Aikido IS that!!!
O'Sensei didn't create a dance, that already existed and was called Kabuki.

 

[cstanley]

And if you want a church it is the first corner to the right...
Sorry, but I got tired of reading this way of interpreting Aikido. You want to believe it like that fine, but do not say Aikido IS that!!!
O'Sensei didn't create a dance, that already existed and was called Kabuki.

You are correct in that Ueshiba was a real tiger in his early years. However, he became more and more "spiritual" in his later years and his interpretation of aikido changed. There is aikijujutsu for those who prefer a more combat oriented art. But, aikido is not that. Now, many who feel as you do have tried to reverse engineer aikido to make it "combat effective." That is not in the spirit of the art. I do not practice aikido, but there is a classical aikido school near me and it has been in existence since 1968. They are under Kanai Sensei and have several very high ranking and knowledgeable seniors in the dojo. We have had this conversation many times.

 

[charyuop]

If you look online you will find available an interview with O'Sensei in which he says that Aikido was made what you call spiritual because he had to adapt it to his body getting weak.

I might be wrong, but I guess it was O'Sensei who said Aikido is 80% Atemi. If the Sensei of the dojo near your house thinks Atemi is far away from Aikido sorry for him.

 

[theletch1]

You two are having a debate that is as old as aikido. The reason there are so many sub-styles of aikido is that there are that many (and more) interpretations of what aikido IS. One of the things that I really love about the art is its adaptability. In a hard style, if you punch someone you'd better punch with all you've got. That only gives you one power setting really. In aikido each technique can be adjusted to the situation. IE, Uncle Joe gets drunk at the christmas party and has to be restrained. You use technique A to control him without breaking anything. Someone breaks into your home and you use technique A again but with enough oomph to break the guys arm, wrist whatever. The individual techniques are give you a great deal of leeway for the situation. The art as a whole is the same way. To say that aikido IS this or IS that is to lose a great deal of the flexibility of the art. Yes, O'Sensei was the man who said that aikido is 80% atemi. Yes, O'Sensei was a VERY spiritual man. I don't see why the two concepts must be mutually exclusive.

Don't feel sorry for the aiki sensei who feels that aikido must be spiritual for that's his own personal interpretation. Don't feel that those who view aikido as combat effective as missing something because it can be. Aikido is a living art in my mind and as such is ever evolving with each and every practitioner. THAT is the true spiritual side of the art...making it your own and adapting it to your needs, whether they be spritual or combat oriented.

 

[cstanley]

Well, I like the part about atemi, anyway.:ultracool

 

[morph4me]

You are correct in that Ueshiba was a real tiger in his early years. However, he became more and more "spiritual" in his later years and his interpretation of aikido changed. There is aikijujutsu for those who prefer a more combat oriented art. But, aikido is not that. Now, many who feel as you do have tried to reverse engineer aikido to make it "combat effective." That is not in the spirit of the art. I do not practice aikido, but there is a classical aikido school near me and it has been in existence since 1968. They are under Kanai Sensei and have several very high ranking and knowledgeable seniors in the dojo. We have had this conversation many times.

My instructor's aikido school has been in existance since 1962, and has been "combat effective" the whole time. We practice punches and kicks and all the things that you say aikido isn't. We've even done sparring drills so we can see how aikido techniques can be used in a sparring situation. That doesn't make my style of aikido any more right or wrong that the classical aikido school near you, just different. It's all in the interpretation and it's all aikido

 

[zDom]

If someone wants a combat art and appreciates aikido, then they need to seek out a Daito ryu dojo.

... or hapkido.

Both aikido and hapkido have roots in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Hapkido, however, is very combat oriented.

 

[Budo_NJ]

I think everyone's responses have been insightful.

The dojo that I train at practices a harder style of aikido and is not so ki-oriented. I also think that I will take scottcatchot's suggestion and start practicing with an uncooperative uke to help improve my aikido. But I still think that sparring would go a long way in helping to improve an individual's technique and it could be added without contradicting aikido philosophy. The lack of it really doesn't make sense to me.

BTW, I looked into two different Daito Ryu schools and neither of them included sparring as part of their curriculum.

 

[MA-Caver]

Since I see aikido as a purely defensive art as opposed to say, Kenpo which can be both offensive and defensive, sparring would be difficult because as I see aikido it is taking your attacker's movements/momentum and using it against them. But I've seen vids (and Segal's movies ... ok not wholly realistic but best example I can come up with) where attack is possible utilizing other techs taught by the aikido masters.
Still as devastating as the art is by itself...it would be interesting to see how sparring would be done. A higher chance of something going wrong and hearing a snap of a wrist/arm bone as well.

 

[Chizikunbo]

I've recently been wondering why there is no sparring in all styles of Aikido (other than the Shodokan/Tomiki style). I've been training in Aikido for about 2 years and after recently watching a karate competition I realized a couples of things:

1. The strict forms that they practice seemed to have almost no connection to sparring.
2. The competitors' bounced and took on quick, boxer-like movements.

This made me wonder how I would react when in the same situation. How would I move when I didn't know when/where an attack was coming? How would the pressure of an actual fight psychologically effect my Aikido? Wouldn't sparring help strengthen technique and point out weaknesses?

I'm not talking about formal competitions. I'm just suggesting that sparring might enhance the Aikido curriculum.

Any thoughts?

Ill give my opinion with another question...Why would you want Aikido sparring?

The whole concept of Aikido is harmony. Competition is in direct opposition to this concept...how more disharmonious can you get than pitting two folks against each other? Aikido has much more "apparent" philosophical and spritual aspects than alot of other arts, looking into those should give you the answer you are looking for. Think of Aikiwaza, that are about creating complete harmony with your partner (not opponent). Also Aikido techniques focus on a very defensive methodology. Not an offensive method. It would be hard to rate any points as well unless you added to or altered the waza..
Just MHO...
--josh

 

[charyuop]

I would look at it in a different way...
What do you do now while practicing?
Someone attacks you and you defend.
What would you do in sparring situation? Someone attacks you and you defend.

There is no difference except that in sparring you avoid that situation where you get ready, wait for the known attack and practice the technique.

People keep mentioning O Sensei and his spiritual words forgetting that O Sensei spent his life fighting and when he created Aikido he was an excellent fighter already.
If you go and get all the great Sensei's that studied under O Sensei they were already great fighters in other styles. That means they had already sparred in other styles and developed that reflex/quickness of response that you need in a real fight.

I am sorry, but nobody will make me believe that you will be able to achieve a good defensive level just by practicing on known attacks. Someone who keeps moving in a way that he keeps changing attack is something that will teach you how to behave in a real situation.

You can learn as many techniques as you want, but if you cannot apply them you can never say you know Aikido. At that point you can learn the theory of Aikido even in books.


Just my opinion...

 

[Chizikunbo]

I am sorry, but nobody will make me believe that you will be able to achieve a good defensive level just by practicing on known attacks.

Yes you can. The whole idea behind martial arts is conceptual. Just learning a technique here and a technique here will not aid you in developing skills of pugilism. You have to learn the concepts behind the techniques you are learning. When you truly understand concepts technique transcends form and simply becomes action. For instance, if I know that an attacker throws a right punch I have the options of going inside or outside, I know that I can catch or deflect the blow a. b. or c. and I know that if a joint is twisted at this angle it hurts like hell a technique can come out. You practice technique in form so you can write to technique fully to your memory. It becomes instinctive. A child is not born needing to learn how to breath, it simply breaths, this is instinct, and this is how technique should flow after much practice.
You must strive to understand the basic principles and concepts of martial artistry, then you can achieve true technique. Technique that is grafted to the body. Form is practiced to open the "inner eyes" of the practicioner, this is not really mystical, but is achieved through practice and understanding. When you have cultivated the "inner eyes" technique flows freely from your body according to the situation.
If you look at Aikido waza being simply sets of techinques, thats all you will get, are those basic techniques, against those basic attacks. If you view them properly as concepts, and principles then they are universal and can be applied in any situation, adapted, and conformed according to the current need. I will leave you with one further example. When one is learning how to drive, you have to learn some basic concepts, you have to turn the key, place the car in drive. You know that pushing the gas pedal make you move forward, or accelerate, and pressing the brake makes you stop or slow down. You know that you should stay between the lines, and on your side of the road, you know that the steering wheel controls your direction. This is all fine and dandy, but when you get on the interstate, you are not soley in control. Your situation is constantly changing, but as long as you keep to the basic principles of driving you can adapt and be safe when someone unexpectedly swerves into your lane, or turn with no signal, or come to a quick stop. You are not taught these things in drivers ed. You cannot learn a method for every situation, but you learn and understand the concepts, the principles, you make them your own, and then they are adaptable to almost anything "thrown at you" (pun intended).
Take care,
--Josh

 

[charyuop]

I will give you the same example you used to show you what I mean...I mean with driving.

They taught me to stop the car the fastest you can apply on breaks as hard as you can can, but never reach the point where the wheels stop. So I practice at home on pressing the break pedals till I reach the point where I don't stop the wheels---> Aikido practice.
The first day I go out with my new car and a kid suddenly crosses the street right in front of me, I press on the break pedal as hard as I can, stopping the wheels ----> Lack of sparring.

They taught me on ice when you lose control of the car do not break or counter steer, but gently lead the car where it wants to go. I go home and drive in my back alley pretending to lose control and regaining it ----> Aikido practice.
Ice storm been in town for the past three days. I need to go out to buy groceries coz I am all out of them and the first turn I lose control of te car. I stomp on the breaks and turn violently to the way I want to go ----> Lack of sparring.

Now these example are very exagerated, but I hope you see where I want to get to.

 

[Chizikunbo]

I will give you the same example you used to show you what I mean...I mean with driving.

They taught me to stop the car the fastest you can apply on breaks as hard as you can can, but never reach the point where the wheels stop. So I practice at home on pressing the break pedals till I reach the point where I don't stop the wheels---> Aikido practice.
The first day I go out with my new car and a kid suddenly crosses the street right in front of me, I press on the break pedal as hard as I can, stopping the wheels ----> Lack of sparring.

They taught me on ice when you lose control of the car do not break or counter steer, but gently lead the car where it wants to go. I go home and drive in my back alley pretending to lose control and regaining it ----> Aikido practice.
Ice storm been in town for the past three days. I need to go out to buy groceries coz I am all out of them and the first turn I lose control of te car. I stomp on the breaks and turn violently to the way I want to go ----> Lack of sparring.

Now these example are very exagerated, but I hope you see where I want to get to.

I see your point...however we must recall illustrations are simply examples used to aid the listener in getting to the point. You have also done this effectivly.
However, I think your

---->Lack of sparring

is actually ---->lack of practice. The truth is that sparring nor practice are either like hat you actually encounter in a self-defense situation. I have heard too many folks go on and on about sparring, but in reality it is not better nor worse than any tool we use to gain skill, such as forms (kata), waza etc. GM Rudy Timmerman once related a story about having one of his friends shot in front of his face, and then having the weapon turned on him, when he charged the man he knew that he would do him in if the gun didnt get him first. The man with the gun ran even though GM was unarmed. He knew that GM would "do him in". He then followed by "if you think sparring is going to prepare you for a real situation you are mistakes, the energy or whatever you call is it completely different than what you get in sparring or practice". In sparring your opponent is not trying to kill you. The connection is different. Sparring has its place, but IMHO it is basic practice that matters in Aikido, this is where the concepts are learned and perfected, after that there is sparring with random attacks, it all ties together, but sparring is no more realistic than basic partnered waza ^_^
--josh