Aikido against a boxer

[pdg]

Do we agree that it's much more fun to discuss MA in this level?

How far can we have discussion if

- My right hand grab on your left wrist.
- Your right hand knock me down?

Oh it's more fun, but it's potentially never ending...

Your two step scenario there implies I have that plan, but it's not that simple.

-Your right hand grabs my left wrist
-Who knows?

That's much more accurate.

If you just grab it and stand there waiting to see what I do, we might very well be stood holding hands until one of us gets thirsty.

If you grab it and raise your left hand to strike my wrist, I might punch. That might be at your face, your armpit, your groin, your shoulder... I don't know what's open.

Or, I might kick. Or I might elbow. Or I might grab elsewhere.

If I know for sure (say it's a drill) that you're going to strike and go for a neck grab (as in the video) I might use my right arm to perform an outward block against your arm going for my neck, then lead that motion into a knifehand neck strike or backfist on the return.

Or I might duck under your arm and do something else like hook my right arm behind your front knee. Maybe.

As an example of a combination, fine. It legitimately shows one possible outcome. I have no problem with that.

But it's 3 moves (wrist grab, strike, neck grab) - I don't think anyone can say they can always consistently make all 3 moves work in the same order.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Aikido may assume that if A grabs on B's wrist, B will have more advantage than A. This is the part that I don't agree. IMO, if A grabs on B, A is one step ahead of B.

Here is an example for striking art.

here is an example for wrestling art.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not good at Aikido ok fair enough

If your self defence hinges on winning a striking war with somone. You want to be good at striking.

Otherwise you do the Rousey

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is a simple question.

If you want to achieve "harmony", but your opponent wants to interrupt your "harmony", can you still be able to achieve "harmony"? How?

 

[Ryback]

The issue is it's not always possible to achieve harmony. How can you achieve harmony if your opponent does this to you?

Are you kidding me? This?? You probably have no idea whatsoever what Aikido is about and how it works...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you kidding me? This?? You probably have no idea whatsoever what Aikido is about and how it works...

You are right! I don't know how an Aikido guy may handle that situation. That's why I ask. I did ask many Judo guys how would they handle that situation. Just by that situation, it can be a very interested discussion. Do you resist, yield, or ...? It's a perfect situation that "harmony" have to be destroyed.

- Do Aikido guys compete in Judo tournament (both are Japanese throwing art)?
- Do Judo guy ever challenge Aikido guy (or the other way around)?

I don't know. You tell me.

By the way, I did have a student who was a blown belt in Aikido. I have wrestled with him on the mat for many years. Also Armando Flores was my training partner when we were young. Armando and I both competed in the Karate tournament back in the 70th.

 

[now disabled]

Here is a simple question.

If you want to achieve "harmony", but your opponent wants to interrupt your "harmony", can you still be able to achieve "harmony"? How?

The short answer is yes

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't like the technique that "you do X and I counter with Y". I like the technique that "I do X, you counter with Y, I then counter with Z".

Why is trying to guess their counter better? To me, that's not better than saying "If you do X, I counter with Y. If you do Y I counter with Z." Those are two different trained responses, but they chain together without having to guess that they'll do Y as a counter to X.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course there are always ways to counter a plan. IMO, to assume that your opponent doesn't have a plan is unrealistic.

Should we discuss MA only on the grade school level - you kick me, I kick you back. You punch me, I punch you back? I think we should discuss MA on the university level - I use groin kick to set up a face punch, use face punch to set up a clinch, use clinch to ....

I don't think I've ever heard anyone assume someone doesn't have a plan. At the same time, many of us don't have a specific, conscious plan. When I grab a wrist, it's because I saw an opening. What I do after I grab it isn't usually a conscious selection - it's driven by what I see and feel as I grab, and what they do while I'm grabbing. I could go for an arm drag takedown, I could push the hand down to expose the head, I could retain the wrist and use a head-based takedown, or I could do something entirely different. The closest I come to a plan is when I practice sequences. So I know some things I could do given specific openings and input, but it's still a matter of the moment as to which I would do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How do you intend to achieve "harmony" by using Aikido or Judo principle if your opponent do this to you?

When your opponent applies "shaking" on you, there will be no "harmony". You have one grip on your opponent, your opponent breaks it apart. You have another grip on him, he also breaks that grip apart.

Every principle has times when it can't be applied.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Aikido may assume that if A grabs on B's wrist, B will have more advantage than A. This is the part that I don't agree. IMO, if A grabs on B, A is one step ahead of B.

Here is an example for striking art.

here is an example for wrestling art.

I don't think Aikido (as a system) makes that assumption. It assumes that gives B a connection he didn't have, which is an advantage. A also has that connection, and could use that same advantage. It sounds like you're making assumptions, John, rather than asking questions to get clarification.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If your self defence hinges on winning a striking war with somone. You want to be good at striking.

Otherwise you do the Rousey

Agreed. I consider good striking a foundational skill for defense (not necessarily for all sport MA, of course). It's the easiest fall-back and the highest-percentage move in a lot of situations. And if you're training with strikers, you're apt to be better against strikes, including with your grappling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is a simple question.

If you want to achieve "harmony", but your opponent wants to interrupt your "harmony", can you still be able to achieve "harmony"? How?

You can, in some situations. If they want to push and pull back and forth, I just need to pick one to work with. I ignore the other for the most part. I don't need their cooperation to blend with their movement. Of course, if they are skilled at blending (other arts besides Aikido have it, though it looks different and often isn't called "blending"), they should be capable of counter-blending to make it more difficult.

It's no different from any other principle. To punch you need a target. If they are good at defending targets, it's harder to hit them. Same-same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are right! I don't know how an Aikido guy may handle that situation. That's why I ask. I did ask many Judo guys how would they handle that situation. Just by that situation, it can be a very interested discussion. Do you resist, yield, or ...? It's a perfect situation that "harmony" have to be destroyed.

- Do Aikido guys compete in Judo tournament (both are Japanese throwing art)?
- Do Judo guy ever challenge Aikido guy (or the other way around)?

I don't know. You tell me.

By the way, I did have a student who was a blown belt in Aikido. I have wrestled with him on the mat for many years. Also Armando Flores was my training partner when we were young. Armando and I both competed in the Karate tournament back in the 70th.

I can give my (pseudo-Aikido) view on this. For that clip you posted, I could either harmonize with that motion (yep, it can be done) and use it to try to get their structure, or I could oppose it (not very "aiki" in some views) with weight drops and quick pushes to break up their intent. Those are two significant approaches (there would be others), and each has advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am not in any way calling your skills in to doubt however if I (and I can't now lol) fully fired up Kotegaeshi then your wrist would break

Also I don't know many boxers who can counter an Aikido joint lock or learn how to absorb a dynamic Irimi Nage for example.

As for resistance, believe me every time we use more resistance in the attacks it's easier to control the Uke, what is difficult is to control a relaxed fast Uke who instead of resisting he is trying to counter you, if that's what you mean then, yeah we do that.

Counters are resistance. Resistance does not mean the same thing as tension. Resistance is the thing you need in your training, and relaxation and counters are part of how we resist aiki techniques. As is controlling our weight transfers and keeping center and structure. Have your partner do those things and find out what causes problems. That's training with resistance.

We agree then. If by resistance you mean being relaxed in order to be able to counter the techniques and re-attack then yes, that's part of our practice, an everyday part.

If someone decides to stop a technique from being applied, he can either try to counter it using another technique or try to tense up physically and try to outmuscle the technique.

I'd like to expand on gpseymour's point, because I see frequent miscommunication sometimes when these discussions of "compliant" and "resistance" come up.

"Resistance" doesn't mean that (for example) uke waits until nage has a full-fledged kotegaeshi locked on and then tried to muscle out. That's just asking for a broken wrist. It would be like applying "resistance" in a boxing match by waiting until someone punches you in the face and trying to tense up your nose to resist the incoming fist.

"Resistance" or "non-compliance" involves imposing your will and your techniques on the other person while not allowing them to do the same to you, using whatever methods are allowed within the confines of the current exercise.

Getting back to kotegaeshi as an example ...
Typical application of kotegaeshi involves several steps:

Gaining control of the opponent's wrist
Using that control to break the opponent's balance and structure by leading him to overextend and compromise his alignment.
At the same time, nage will be moving off line, gaining a favorable angle relative to uke
Compromise the structure of the opponent's wrist through flexing it.
Finish by applying outwards rotation to the compromised wrist.
(There are additional details, such as leading the opponent to shift his body weight one direction then applying the kotegaeshi in the opposite direction to increase the destructive power of the lock, but I think I've covered the high points above.)

In true "non-compliant" randori, your opponent will
Try not to let you get control of his wrist
Try to break your control if you do get hold of his wrist
Work to avoid having his structure or balance compromised
Work to regain his structure and balance if it is compromised
At the same time, the opponent will be working to gain a favorable angle on you, compromise your structure and balance, and apply whatever techniques he knows (strikes, throws, trips, etc) which are allowed within the current exercise.

Ryback posted that "Also I don't know many boxers who can counter an Aikido joint lock or learn how to absorb a dynamic Irimi Nage for example." The boxer's method for countering an aikido joint lock is to not let you get control of the limb in the first place and not allow you to break their structure if you do manage to grab a wrist. As for irimi nage - if you are able to apply irimi nage that generally means that you also had the option of applying a really solid strike to the face or throat. Boxers are pretty good at not getting hit.

Please note - none of this is intended to trash Aikido or take sides in a style vs style argument. I'm just clarifying what we're talking about with "compliance" vs "resistance/non-compliance."

 

[pdg]

Ryback posted that "Also I don't know many boxers who can counter an Aikido joint lock or learn how to absorb a dynamic Irimi Nage for example."

However

you don't have to study with boxers in order to be effective...

So not knowing many boxers who can counter those techniques appears to be equal to just simply not having worked with any boxers?


By the exact same logic, I don't know many BJJ practitioners who can counter a tkd kick.

Having never worked with any at all helps to reinforce that statement.

To put it another way, I could even say "I have no personal evidence to suggest that any BJJ guy could do anything about it if I decided to hit him"

Maybe I should get one of my tkd training partners to dress up all BJJ like and then I can come up with absolutely irrefutable evidence...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd like to expand on gpseymour's point, because I see frequent miscommunication sometimes when these discussions of "compliant" and "resistance" come up.

"Resistance" doesn't mean that (for example) uke waits until nage has a full-fledged kotegaeshi locked on and then tried to muscle out. That's just asking for a broken wrist. It would be like applying "resistance" in a boxing match by waiting until someone punches you in the face and trying to tense up your nose to resist the incoming fist.

"Resistance" or "non-compliance" involves imposing your will and your techniques on the other person while not allowing them to do the same to you, using whatever methods are allowed within the confines of the current exercise.

Getting back to kotegaeshi as an example ...
Typical application of kotegaeshi involves several steps:

Gaining control of the opponent's wrist
Using that control to break the opponent's balance and structure by leading him to overextend and compromise his alignment.
At the same time, nage will be moving off line, gaining a favorable angle relative to uke
Compromise the structure of the opponent's wrist through flexing it.
Finish by applying outwards rotation to the compromised wrist.
(There are additional details, such as leading the opponent to shift his body weight one direction then applying the kotegaeshi in the opposite direction to increase the destructive power of the lock, but I think I've covered the high points above.)

In true "non-compliant" randori, your opponent will
Try not to let you get control of his wrist
Try to break your control if you do get hold of his wrist
Work to avoid having his structure or balance compromised
Work to regain his structure and balance if it is compromised
At the same time, the opponent will be working to gain a favorable angle on you, compromise your structure and balance, and apply whatever techniques he knows (strikes, throws, trips, etc) which are allowed within the current exercise.

Ryback posted that "Also I don't know many boxers who can counter an Aikido joint lock or learn how to absorb a dynamic Irimi Nage for example." The boxer's method for countering an aikido joint lock is to not let you get control of the limb in the first place and not allow you to break their structure if you do manage to grab a wrist. As for irimi nage - if you are able to apply irimi nage that generally means that you also had the option of applying a really solid strike to the face or throat. Boxers are pretty good at not getting hit.

Please note - none of this is intended to trash Aikido or take sides in a style vs style argument. I'm just clarifying what we're talking about with "compliance" vs "resistance/non-compliance."

As usual, excellent clarification, Tony.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

However



So not knowing many boxers who can counter those techniques appears to be equal to just simply not having worked with any boxers?


By the exact same logic, I don't know many BJJ practitioners who can counter a tkd kick.

Having never worked with any at all helps to reinforce that statement.

To put it another way, I could even say "I have no personal evidence to suggest that any BJJ guy could do anything about it if I decided to hit him"

Maybe I should get one of my tkd training partners to dress up all BJJ like and then I can come up with absolutely irrefutable evidence...

Nah, they don't need to put on a BJJ gi (those things can get expensive). Just have them crouch down like they're going for a double-leg. That's good enough to simulate BJJ.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I was teaching in class a couple of days ago and the subject of self defence against a boxer type attack came up.

We hold a 20 to 30 minute section dealing with SD specifics at the end of class.

During this, the subject came up of the boxer flying in and out of range and throwing short fast jabs in and out

I wondered what the aiki way of defence would be against this style of attack, where its difficult to respond directly to specific attacks that are designed to wear down the opponent (jabs) and also the fairly fast footwork of a boxer.

This thread has gone off on a few tangents since it was originally posted 12 years ago and I don't think the OP has been back in a while. Still, I thought I'd address the original question with this clip, which is probably one of the best suggestions I've seen for applying Aikido to a boxing opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This thread has gone off on a few tangents since it was originally posted 12 years ago and I don't think the OP has been back in a while. Still, I thought I'd address the original question with this clip, which is probably one of the best suggestions I've seen for applying Aikido to a boxing opponent.

I like that. It shows that you wouldn't be grabbing the wrist. Basically, he trapped it while slipping the jab, then caught it in the retraction to transition to kote gaeshi. His focus on the entry (what he calls closing) and that what happens after isn't as important is spot-on.