Agree of Disagree with My Statement?

[ArmorOfGod]

Tonight in class, I made a comment to my students that martial arts are maybe the only sport where practice overides natural talent.

To get to the NFL or on a pro-sports level, one needs natural talent or ability, but one can eventually get good at a martial arts style if he or she keeps practicing diligently.

Does everyone agree or disagree with that statement?

AoG

 

[grydth]

You are certainly correct with respect to the martial arts. In fact I have seen at least one Chinese master rank natural talent as being the least gift.

But I think such can be true of other sports, too. It was said Pete Rose just tried - or "hustled" - harder. Football games decided in the 4th quarter are often ascribed to harder practice and better conditioning of the winning team. Similarly, 5 set tennis matches are said to come down to 'heart'... who wants it more? I believe work ethic is often the ticket that moves an AHL hockey player up to an NHL spot.

 

[stickarts]

I also agree that it is true of Martial Arts, but also other sports.
I have seen people make amazing improvement in swimming and baseball that didn't have a lot of natural aptitude.
Definately have seen it a great deal in Martial Arts too.

 

[Drac]

I agree..

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Work ethic and drive generally seperates the great martial artist from someone with lesser skill and yet innate natural attributes can certainly give one a huge advantage when combined with a great work ethic and a driven personality.

Not everyone has it even when they have a great work ethic and yet they can still be the absolute best that they can be.

What I will agree more so with is that with lots of dilligent practice that most people can become good at martial arts. Great, probably not but good absolutely!

 

[seasoned]

Tonight in class, I made a comment to my students that martial arts are maybe the only sport where practice overides natural talent.

To get to the NFL or on a pro-sports level, one needs natural talent or ability, but one can eventually get good at a martial arts style if he or she keeps practicing diligently.

Does everyone agree or disagree with that statement?

AoG

My feelings are that any Sensei can take a person with talent and make them better. The biggest challenge in this scenario would be monitoring their ego. I have seen way to many students who became physically better because they started from a stronger base of flexibility coordination and strength only to lag behind in humility. Personally I prefer the slower route of building a person from scratch , from the ground up J .

 

[DArnold]

My feelings are that any Sensei can take a person with talent and make them better. The biggest challenge in this scenario would be monitoring their ego. I have seen way to many students who became physically better because they started from a stronger base of flexibility coordination and strength only to lag behind in humility. Personally I prefer the slower route of building a person from scratch , from the ground up J .

Amen,
Wasn't it Nolan Ryan who said, "It only took me 28 years to become a "natural" "?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

My feelings are that any Sensei can take a person with talent and make them better. The biggest challenge in this scenario would be monitoring their ego. I have seen way to many students who became physically better because they started from a stronger base of flexibility coordination and strength only to lag behind in humility. Personally I prefer the slower route of building a person from scratch , from the ground up J .

Absolutely I would agree with you there. I have seen someone start from a stronger overall attribute base and yet not stick with it and leave the martial arts all together. Thereby losing their skills. I have seen that quite a few times. I have also observed someone with lesser attributes become very, very good martial artists through lots of pain and sweat. Still I have also observed someone with great attributes and drive and that is something really special!

 

[michaeledward]

I think the analogy is faulty. It is very difficult to compare professional football to martial arts. The world class athletes participating in professional sports get world wide recognition and compensation. Without martial arts having similar recognition and compensation, we can not be certain if those with potential begin to study the activity.

The hypothetical question that is sometimes asked is: what if Mozart never sat down at a keyboard?

The team sports, football, soccer, baseball and basketball, all have pee-wee leagues, and city leagues, and travel leagues that draw the attention of young people. Every day, or every weekend, television broadcasts teams participating in these activities. Newspapers print out the individual competitors results. "Fantasy Leagues" draw in the sedintary to these activities.

I would be willing to wager that most youth in the country know about Michael Jordan (pick your sports superstar). And that knowledge spawns dreams in many of them.

Who is the comparable martial arts superstar? (I bet most young people would choose a sterioded member of the WWE over a "real" athlete).

So, the next young 'Bruce Lee' or 'Ed Parker' may never be exposed to Martial Arts. So all of the natural ability never gets developed.

And if this is true, the student who practices diligently, may never get tested against a student with natural ability.


And, of course, further, the actual testing process in martial arts exists in an over-controlled environment that does not ever bring the best competitors face to face. Participation in martial arts tournaments is a self-selecting activity. There is no national standard by which athletes compete.

This evening, I was watching a very naturally talented, and extremely diligent martial artist work on her bo-staff material for tournaments. Her practice included twirling a staff like a baton, and throwing the weapon into the air. She stated that these moves were required to win the tournaments.

I believe that allowing your weapon to leave your hands should immediately disqualify a participant from a martial arts competition. That may be 'old school', but if my weapon is not in my hands, I can't hit you with it, nor defend myself from your attack; no matter how pretty it may look.


I appreciate your sentiment, but, No, the analogy doesn't work, and it can't be tested.

 

[Kacey]

Tonight in class, I made a comment to my students that martial arts are maybe the only sport where practice overides natural talent.

To get to the NFL or on a pro-sports level, one needs natural talent or ability, but one can eventually get good at a martial arts style if he or she keeps practicing diligently.

Does everyone agree or disagree with that statement?

AoG

I disagree. Anyone has the potential to improve with practice; how much improvement may vary depending on coordination, determination, practice, quality of instruction, availability of good instruction, build, and so on. Now, some people may have greater potential, or may find the activity for which they are most suited earlier in life, giving them a better chance at improvement... but that goes for any sport/activity/hobby/etc.

As far as your actual comparison - how many martial artists reach a level comparable to the NFL or other pro-sports level? What percentage of amateur football players, baseball players, soccer players, basketball players, dancers, runners, weight lifters, boxers, etc., reach the pro-sports level, and how does that compare to the percentage of martial artists that reach a comparable level?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Martial Arts aren't a sport. Outside that, I do agree.

 

[HKphooey]

Tonight in class, I made a comment to my students that martial arts are maybe the only sport where practice overides natural talent.

To get to the NFL or on a pro-sports level, one needs natural talent or ability, but one can eventually get good at a martial arts style if he or she keeps practicing diligently.

Does everyone agree or disagree with that statement?

AoG

I would have to disagree. I think it may be a littel easier to overcome a lack of talent, but all the practice in the world does not make you a better martial artists. First off, the practice needs to be done properly. If a student does not pay full attention in calss or fully comprehend the materail, he/she may go home and practice the wrong thing. Also, there is the mental facture. You can show someone the moves, but they need to have an open mind to see the big picture and the desire to seek out knowledge on their own. I guess one could call that practice, but I think most people think of it as the act of reviewing your material over and over. I have seen some awesome forms and self-defense techniques at tournaments, but the person had no clue why he/she was executing the moves.

Just my two cents. Great thread!

 

[seasoned]

I believe that allowing your weapon to leave your hands should immediately disqualify a participant from a martial arts competition. That may be 'old school', but if my weapon is not in my hands, I can't hit you with it, nor defend myself from your attack; no matter how pretty it may look.

Yes the “good old days.” or “old school” as stated. It has been said that the day of the warrior is gone. The way we trained years ago would not fly now a days. Sadly I would agree with this. When I use the word warrior above I don’t necessarily mean the killing kind but the disciplined kind. In Armor of Gods original post “to get to the NFL or on a Pro- sports level you would need natural talent or ability is correct. If it weren’t you would spend all your time on the bench and from a Martial perspective that would be detrimental to mental growth. Now in Martial Arts when he told his students that they could become good if he or she keeps practicing diligently is also true. They are just coming from two different perspectives. The difference lays in the mind set of the coach or Sensei’s attitude toward it. When it gets down to it sports teaches you to beat the other person and any good DoJo teaches you to over come yourself.

 

[Odin]

I think it depends on what stage you take your martial art too.
Over time you can go from being an unco-ordianted clue-less punch shy beginner to a co-ordinated confident student that is more then able to defend themselves.

BUT

To be the best on the world stage you do need some natural talant, if you didnt everyone would be a bruce lee or Randy Coulture or a Rickson Gracie.

Theres actually a point in any fighters life when they must come to terms with the fact that no matter how much they train, no matter how long they learn there are those that seem to have been born to do their chosen martial arts and they will always be better.

 

[Cirdan]

I think there are plenty of sports where practice can be way more important than raw talent.

 

[Grenadier]

To me, martial arts is about taking what your student has, and developing it as well as you can. For example, there are some students, due to the absolute lack of flexibility, who will never be able to kick above the waist, or students who have significantly less mobility than your "average" student. This does not, however, preclude a student from becoming good at the martial arts, since it's not just about one technique or ability.

How a sensei can bring out the best in each person who may be lacking talent, can often be seen as a good measurement of his teaching abilities.

Talent, though, does help, and of course, it's a joy to have someone with both talent, and the work ethic to go along with it. If anything, such individuals can indirectly help a huge amount, since many of the others will aspire to be that person.



Talent alone, still won't get you very far in professional sports, such as the NFL. Maybe in high school, but probably not in college, and definitely not in the pros. I've seen quite a few talented high school players stagnate horribly once they hit the college ranks, because their coaches were inept, and were unable to develop them. Either that, or they refused to listen to instruction, and fell by the wayside.

Some are even given a second (and third, and so forth) chance, and blow it:

Take a look at the Ohio State University runningback, Maurice Clarett:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Clarett

The kid was a football god (awesome talent) coming out of high school, had a remarkable freshman season, but then fell by the wayside horribly. He was even given a golden opportunity by Mike Shannahan (Denver Broncos coach), who has always been a great evaluator of talent, and blew it.

 

[Balrog]

There's an old saying: practice makes perfect.

I disagree with that. Practice makes habit. Perfect practice makes perfect. And it's the people that are willing to go the extra mile, so to speak, and strive for mastery rather than competence who become the Pros From Dover in any sport or discipline.

Too often, people rely on natural talent and don't put in the extra effort.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Opportunity matters far more than ability. Training in the martial arts is a decision. You decide how much effort you put in. I think factors like getting the kids to school, shopping, making supper, getting to work etc. have a much bigger influence than presence/lack of natural skill. If you speak loud enough for your limitations, they'll be yours. LOL...Chuck Norris...if ever there was a rugged underdog...

 

[kidswarrior]

I disagree. Anyone has the potential to improve with practice; how much improvement may vary depending on coordination, determination, practice, quality of instruction, availability of good instruction, build, and so on. Now, some people may have greater potential, or may find the activity for which they are most suited earlier in life, giving them a better chance at improvement... but that goes for any sport/activity/hobby/etc.

As far as your actual comparison - how many martial artists reach a level comparable to the NFL or other pro-sports level? What percentage of amateur football players, baseball players, soccer players, basketball players, dancers, runners, weight lifters, boxers, etc., reach the pro-sports level, and how does that compare to the percentage of martial artists that reach a comparable level?

Yes, this resonates with my experience, too. In asking thousands of teens over the decades what their career plans were, a huge number of the boys would say--in all seriousness--The NBA, or sometimes major league baseball. My standard response from way back is, one in 500,000 make it to the NBA (and of those, how many wash out the first year?). The numbers may have changed by now, but probably not by much.

So, instead of counting on being a 'star' (NBA, prof. sports of any kind), why not keep at what you love as a hobby, and just get better over time? I think this is the analogy I prefer for the MAs. Hard work+time+determination=the MAist improving steadily until decades later, it's hard to tell if the (now) master started out with natural ability or not.

And the great thing about MAs is you can continue into old age (like me ), whereas competitive sports pretty much tear up your body within a decade or so: Earl Campbell is basically crippled; wasn't it liver failure that took a very young Walter Payton?; and many, many former pro ball players can't make it through a night without physical help (thinking of Jim Plunkett as one of the first I read this about).

So, I guess natural physical giftedness can make a difference in the first few years, but over decades, I don't think it matters. Those who last that long learn how to overcome any natural disabilities. After all, how many long-timers on this board were nerds/geeks as kids? And how many of those same people are MA instructors, and/or have every confidence they could handle a tough situation (not competition, but the real deal)? So I guess my conclusion is, with sports we lose our edge and abilities with time; with MAs, we hone our edge and abilities with time.

 

[Sukerkin]

Some good thoughts in this thread, ladies and gentlemen :tup:.

My take on the core question is predicated on the fact that in any human activity there are about five percent of people that have the natural aptitude to really stand out. I don't know what the current term for it is but it used to be known as the 'Ace factor' because it was first noted amongst fighter pilots.

No amount of training or knowledge can overcome that 'skill gap' but ... and it's a big one (no puns please ) ... this assumes that the amount of and quality of training and practise is the same. It's a ceterus paribus ("all other things being equal") kind of deal.

In martial arts, in my limited experience, it seems to be the case, in the main, that it is the students with 'natural ability' that tend to fall by the wayside earlier.

Perhaps for as much as the first few years of training, they revel in their superiority because it comes easy to them. Then the 'work' begins where you are polishing and grinding out minute faults and honing tiny improvements. For the naturally talented, who are used to having things come quickly to them, this is anathema and I believe that many of those MAists seen as 'good' that fade away at black belt level fall into this category.

For the lesser gifted but more dedicated/determined students, the process of training rather than solely the results of it are of a greater emphasis than for the 'Aces'. Thus, on finding that after you get your first Dan, you can expect to train for a similar amount of time again before you reach the standard for your second, they are not fazed and carry on with their training.

So, in the long term, I think that you perceive a circumstance such as the OP posited i.e. that in the martial arts you see a path whereby it is persistence that pays off in terms of skill rather than any innate talent that you start with.

Of course, match born-with-it aptitude with diligence and you get an altogether different outcome .