Affirmative action, yes or no?

[celtic_crippler]

No, you didn't. The link you posted was an article on one of Bill's more publicized speeches-where he said a lot of things about black culture, and nothing about affirmative action.

Like I said...swiss cheese. Time for the weekend and rechargin' the old batteries.

First off, even if we accept all of that, there's a big chicken-and-egg issue. Second--and more important--so what? Do we work to address the issues, or ignore them?

You don't ignore it, but you don't fix a wrong with more wrongs. Or maybe you do, but I don't. It goes against my core values and what I percieve as right and wrong.

I'm against war, but if someone wages war on us...sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. It's unfortunate but it isn't hypocritical to say that now that we're in this mess, this may be the best way out.

Who's waging war on you? There are legal actions you can take if you feel you've been discriminated against.

Defending yourself is one thing, it's completely different if you blindside some poor schmuck on the street because somebody else did you wrong.
Take that! :whip: What the heck did I do!?!?!

Um...Nothing really...:lookie:

But you see...this other guy kicked me in the nutz earlier today. :btg:

And I just thought of it and since you were here I decided to take out my anger on you even though you personally didn't do anything to me.

WTF! :idunno:

But if AA could get things to where the percentage of people at various income levels matched their percentage of the population, it'd ease a lot of racial tensions. There'd be other problems, but that one would be much better.

If a frog had wings...

Affirmative Action simply doesn't work and only perpetuates the problem. You can't have a solution that creates the same problem. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. More discrimination ain't gonna change that.

By that logic we could solve our dependence on oil by using more oil.

 

[yorkshirelad]

First off, even if we accept all of that, there's a big chicken-and-egg issue. Second--and more important--so what? Do we work to address the issues, or ignore them?
.

No, we don't ignore them, we point them out. It seems that white people in the US are afraid of calling black people out on the ********. Thank God for Bill Cosby. Again, should AA be used in the NBA. I'm a 5'8" white guy, but I am sure I could represent my colour on the court. Granted, I might lose every game for my team. I am sure that this would be ok though, because everyone would see that my team is an equal opportunity employer.

I am not responsible for the woes of black people in the US.

 

[elder999]

I am not responsible for the woes of black people in the US.

How are you penalized for them, then?

 

[Phoenix44]

Another thing, of course, is that "Affirmative Action" doesn't necessarily mean "they hire a less qualified person who's 'whatever'" It might mean that upon weighing all the qualified applicants, theyh choose the qualified candidate who fills whatever quota if is they feel that they're obligated to fill with that job.

This is a good point, and this circumstance usually becomes obvious fairly quickly. For example, AA may play a role in your acceptance to Princeton, but that doesn't mean you graduate summa cum laude, and it doesn't get you accepted to Phi Beta Kappa. For that, you need to have what it takes. Think Sotomayor.

 

[yorkshirelad]

How are you penalized for them, then?

As a white guy, am I more likely to get penalized or rewarded through AA? I think you'll find that the answer in PENALIZED.

 

[yorkshirelad]

This is a good point, and this circumstance usually becomes obvious fairly quickly. For example, AA may play a role in your acceptance to Princeton, but that doesn't mean you graduate summa cum laude, and it doesn't get you accepted to Phi Beta Kappa. For that, you need to have what it takes. Think Sotomayor.

Sotomayer is a great example of AA. She might be qualified, but she is 100% unacceptable. She is a racist and sexist. If any male nominee had made the comments about latinas as she made about them, they would have been kicked to the curb. The left are excited that she is a latina.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Life is soooo unfair, isn't it?

And, just so it doesn't get lost, I'll repeat my questions about Bill Cosby and Dr. King:

I'm not refering to comments made by Cosby about AA. I'm refering to comments he has made calling black people on the 'victimhood' ********.

 

[elder999]

As a white guy, am I more likely to get penalized or rewarded through AA? I think you'll find that the answer in PENALIZED.

As a white guy, how have you been penalized?

Not likelihood. I understand your foreswearing any responsibility whatsoever for the plight of the black man, and I accept it-though it seems a little hypocritical in the face of your stance on abortion, that it's "all of our business." In any case, have you missed out on a fireman's job, or maybe that gig on the police force, because you got beaten out by a minority that scored lower? Perhaps you didn't get that job as a trader with Merrill-Lynch ?

Or maybe you just didn't get hired by the "Mickey D's" in Compton, 'cause, let's face it, they're not going to hire you??

 

[elder999]

Sotomayer is a great example of AA. She might be qualified, but she is 100% unacceptable. She is a racist and sexist. If any male nominee had made the comments about latinas as she made about them, they would have been kicked to the curb. The left are excited that she is a latina.

I really don't care that she's latina, and I'm what some would call "on the left." No matter. It's important to note that her very public comments on making decisions as a "wise Latina woman" were prefaced with the words "I would hope," and also to note that she was speaking not in court, or at a judges' conference, but at a conference of what?Latina Women.

In any case, if she's qualified, she's acceptable. More to the point, that's not our decision to make (and perhaps more's the pity, but it's probably a good thing.) It's up to the Senate to confirm her, and they will, just as Justice Thomas was confirmed in spite of allegations of sexual misconduct. Sotomayor will become a Supreme Court Justice in spite of the objections of so many Americans-that's the way the system works. It's not AA, it's just America.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm against war, but if someone wages war on us...sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. It's unfortunate but it isn't hypocritical to say that now that we're in this mess, this may be the best way out.

A fair point that :tup:. I don't agree that AA is the best way but that is still a patently true statement.

But if AA could get things to where the percentage of people at various income levels matched their percentage of the population, it'd ease a lot of racial tensions. There'd be other problems, but that one would be much better.

I agree that you would expect the percentage of any given group to be represented in the workplace but that is never going to be true as long as the very real cultural problems that were pointed out earlier are not addressed in the so-called 'minorities'.

I would likewise agree that the stereotypes we receive from the likes of the rap 'artists' are not representative of all that racial grouping and that there are a great number who are just ordinary Joes who want to live an ordinary working life.

Now, as a foreigner, I don't know how accurate the depictions we see in the media (both fictional and factual) really are but if there truly is ghettoisation, with it's attendant gang-rule and drug-dealing, that is going to have a powerful affect on any attempt to alter the demographics.

Making employeers hire them to fill a quota is not the way to attain that affect, it's as simple as that. Especially if environment of the 'target' popuation codes them with traits that are not desirable in the work place - such as getting stoned whilst at work and then crying racism when they get fired for it (not a hyperbole or a hypothetical example but one I have witnessed for myself).

Racism did exist and still does. Indeed I would argue that it is getting worse in large part due to the very factors we've been discussing here (belligerent 'reverse' racism, sense of victimisation leading to sense of entitlement, attempts to provide guarantees of employment, endemic drug culture et al).

In an ideal world, we would all realise that we are descended from the same tribe (literally) and the problems of 'colour' would disappear. But it seems that it's not really about race per se any longer but rather disfunctional fracturing of social unity. Part of this is the marginalising of the views and the trivialising the concerns of the majority segment of your (our) population - it's a dangerous thing to do and the pressure in the pot is rising from what I see.

 

[yorkshirelad]

As a white guy, how have you been penalized?

Not likelihood. I understand your foreswearing any responsibility whatsoever for the plight of the black man, and I accept it-though it seems a little hypocritical in the face of your stance on abortion, that it's "all of our business." In any case, have you missed out on a fireman's job, or maybe that gig on the police force, because you got beaten out by a minority that scored lower? Perhaps you didn't get that job as a trader with Merrill-Lynch ?

Or maybe you just didn't get hired by the "Mickey D's" in Compton, 'cause, let's face it, they're not going to hire you??

Hang on mate, you deny all rights of a baby to live, because the thing is in the womb and yet you wail like a banshee because terrorists' heads were dunked in water during interrogation and you call me a hypocrit. Just how am I being hypocritical? I don't like the fact that a person's skin colour is used as presidence for getting a job, whether they're are white, black or green with purple polka dots. I don't like the fact that fully formed babies are able to be killed at the whim of the mother. No hypocrisy there matey.

 

[elder999]

Hang on mate, you deny all rights of a baby to live, because the thing is in the womb and yet you wail like a banshee because terrorists' heads were dunked in water during interrogation and you call me a hypocrit. Just how am I being hypocritical? I don't like the fact that a person's skin colour is used as presidence for getting a job, whether they're are white, black or green with purple polka dots. I don't like the fact that fully formed babies are able to be killed at the whim of the mother. No hypocrisy there matey.

Hmmm? I say it's the same as the "women who used PBA as birth control."

Name one case where you know that a person got a job because of the color of there skin. More to the point, name one instance where it happened to you.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I really don't care that she's latina, and I'm what some would call "on the left." No matter. It's important to note that her very public comments on making decisions as a "wise Latina woman" were prefaced with the words "I would hope," and also to note that she was speaking not in court, or at a judges' conference, but at a conference of what?Latina Women.

In any case, if she's qualified, she's acceptable. More to the point, that's not our decision to make (and perhaps more's the pity, but it's probably a good thing.) It's up to the Senate to confirm her, and they will, just as Justice Thomas was confirmed in spite of allegations of sexual misconduct. Sotomayor will become a Supreme Court Justice in spite of the objections of so many Americans-that's the way the system works. It's not AA, it's just America.

Considering Thomas they were ALLEGATIONS. Sotomayet made racial comments that by any standard would have prevented a white male from being even nominated if the shoe was on the other foot. I don't care if "I would hope..." prefaced her comments, the comments were RACIST and SEXIST. Again the dual standard.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Hmmm? I say it's the same as the "women who used PBA as birth control."

Name one case where you know that a person got a job because of the color of there skin. More to the point, name one instance where it happened to you.

That's just it. I would be none the wiser if it had happened to me. That's why again, it is all of our business. You said yourself that Clarence Thomas benefitted directly from AA. Wasn't Sotmayer involved in a lawsuit that involved white firefighters passing a promotion exam, yet they were not promoted because no blacks passed the exam. I'm sure a quick google search will give you numerous examples of AA in the workplace and school environment.

 

[elder999]

You said yourself that Clarence Thomas benefitted directly from AA.

No, I didn't. I said that that's the assumption people make, and why neither of us likes it.

Wasn't Sotmayer involved in a lawsuit that involved white firefighters passing a promotion exam, yet they were not promoted because no blacks passed the exam. I'm sure a quick google search will give you numerous examples of AA in the workplace and school environment.

Actually, blacks passed, they simply didn't score in the top three for the open positions in New Haven. Initially, this was an arbitrary decision on the part of the civil committee (?) to not certify the exam results, and reexamine why no blacks scored in the top three-the positions have, for the last 6 years, remained vacant. The examination itself was supposed to be "race/culturally neutral," but the decisions-one from a judge, and one from an appellate panel of three judges on which Sotomayor sat, rejected the suit from the white firefighters-who were denied promotions-on the basis that the original civil committee was within their rights to do so. Now, I don't think it's right, and I don't think it's fair-but I also don't think it's "Affirmative Action." It was an (stupid) administrative decision made by the hiring committee.The "Affirmative Action" portion of their hiring really already took place in two places: up front, when they hired new cadet firemen, and with the test itself, by ensuring that it was "racially and culturally neutral"-whatever that means.

That's just it. I would be none the wiser if it had happened to me. That's why again, it is all of our business

Actually, that's one thing that makes it none of our business......

 

[elder999]

It's possible for me to be a vet. It's not possible for me to be black. .

Sure it is. My son is "black." Go for it. Check the "black, not of hispanic origin" box on what we playfully call the "EIEIO" forms. (Old MacDonald had a plant, E i E i O. And at this plant there worked some Negroes, E i E i O. :lol: ) No one's going to challenge you, and if they do, just tell them you're granddad was black, or your dad was, or your mom was, and they won't bother checking-because race is an artificial construct, and one that is only defined in the U.S. by skin color and language, or , in the case of those of us with American Indian heritage, the ridiculous "blood quanta. The fact that I qualify for both "races" is only an accident of birth, though a potentially propitious one-same for my son and daughter, the "cookies", as in macaroons, which is altogether different from an octaroon. :lfao:

In any case, call yourself "black." You could be a ginger, and no one would, or could argue with you.:lol:

Yet another reason why I voted, "I don't care." Shame you didn't have "I don't give a ****." :lfao:

Oh, and I'll keep quoting my question on every page of this thread, until someone tries to answer it......

And I'll pose a question-or two-here, for anyone to answer: what do you suppose his views are on Affirmative Action? What do you suppose the views of Dr. martin Luther King were?

 

[arnisador]

You don't ignore it, but you don't fix a wrong with more wrongs. Or maybe you do, but I don't. It goes against my core values and what I percieve as right and wrong.
[...]
Affirmative Action simply doesn't work and only perpetuates the problem. You can't have a solution that creates the same problem. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. More discrimination ain't gonna change that.

So...your solution would be...?

I am not responsible for the woes of black people in the US.

You're not responsible for the poor and uninsured who become sick either, but don't you want to live in a country that takes care of such people? Similarly, wouldn't you want to live in a country that attempts to address the woes of other groups?

 

[arnisador]

I agree that you would expect the percentage of any given group to be represented in the workplace but that is never going to be true as long as the very real cultural problems that were pointed out earlier are not addressed

This is a huge issue. But for a child growing up poor in a bad neighbourhood, going to lousy, unsafe schools, cliches and Public Service Announcements won't do anything. They don't see the benefits and opportunities available to them. This makes addressing those real cultural problems extraordinarily difficult. If you can't raise them out of poverty, it'll be very hard...hence jobs- and school- focused AA.

Making employeers hire them to fill a quota is not the way to attain that affect, it's as simple as that. Especially if environment of the 'target' popuation codes them with traits that are not desirable in the work place - such as getting stoned whilst at work and then crying racism

This is a really simplistic view. People of all races get fired for getting high on the job. Unqualified people need not be hired--AA is among the qualified.

Let me tell you what I see as a college prof. When we hire a minority (racial or female) candidate--as we have done for AA/EOE reasons, over higher-ranked candidates, as well as based on them being the highest-ranked candidate already--it's only from among those already deemed fully qualified. The minority students absolutely flock to those faculty. It matters to them to see someone "like them" in such a position. We're all more comfortable in our own little cliques, after all. It helps our recruitment and retention of like students. That's the "multiplier" effect I see every day at work--getting and keeping more minority kids in college. I teach in an engineering college. Those kids' kids will grow up better off, shifting the balance in the minority population, providing role models, etc. I'm told it's an even stronger effect with minority teachers at the K-12 level.

Does it matter? If you've never seen a black-skinned physician, you form a mental model of the medical profession that you may not even be able to articulate. But if your African-American teachers encourage you to go to medical school, it matters more than if a white teacher does. I assure you, students decide these things on the flimsiest of reasons. They think someone from their own group 'gets' their struggles and is giving them better advice. It doesn't matter whether that's true or not.

But it seems that it's not really about race per se any longer but rather disfunctional fracturing of social unity

...along race-based lines. The Muslims remember the Crusades; African-Americans (and Native Americans) remember more recent atrocities. I hear much wishing away of it here, but few constructive suggestions other than "can't we all just get along?"

I don't like it when we hire other than the highest-ranked person, but I understand it. We have a woman who was tenured by the administration over the objections of the relevant faculty committee (which decided that she was unqualified). The president said, this would be the first tenured woman in an engineering dept. and failing to retain her would be demoralizing to female faculty (who might see discrimination) and female students. She was tenured by presidential fiat. Everyone on the faculty knows what happened and most look down their noses at her for it. Indeed...she's underqualified in the technical arena. But it did make a big difference with the female students, who overwhelm her with requests for her time. She's been a big inspiration to them and has greatly helped in the recruitment of female students. (They don't know about this stuff, of course.) So, she's underqualified by most standards but is making a disproportionately positive contribution in recruitment, retention, and advising. Arguably, the president correctly saw the bigger picture.

 

[Empty Hands]

My son is "black."

Him I would hire. Not you though. That facial hair makes you unqualified, irrespective of skin color. :lol:

 

[yorkshirelad]

In any case, call yourself "black." You could be a ginger, and no one would, or could argue with you.:lol:
quote]
That's actually very good advice, I'm sure at some stage there were black people in my family. BTW, I do have a ginger beard when I grow it.