Abortion pills for everyone...including predators...unintended consequences...

[ballen0351]

Nevermind someone will get offended and I really dont care anymore.

 

[billc]

They aren't getting the sexual predator part of the post...and your points are valid Ballen, a 13 your old is still your child, not anyone elses and you are right to be concerned about side effects, or allergic reactions, or the fact that if she is secretly having sex without your knowledge that some professional, be it a doctor, or a public employee, like a school nurse, should be required to let you, her guardian, know.

The actual focus of the post...

But how can anyone -- anyone -- defend a policy that facilitates sexual predators covering up their exploitation of young girls by simply having them purchase and take the drug?

...............................................

1. Your 13 year old daughter has unprotected sex and gets pregnant and you decide to go through with the pregnancy. Pretty traumatic I would have thought. Complications of pregnancy, possible loss of mother or child.

Believing a 13 year old has the capacity to make a decision impacting both her life and the life of her unborn baby...and your first grandchild...without parental guidance...it is truly a different world...

1. Your 13 year old daughter has unprotected sex and gets pregnant and you decide to go through with the pregnancy. Pretty traumatic I would have thought. Complications of pregnancy, possible loss of mother or child.

2. Your 13 year old daughter has unprotected sex and gets pregnant and you decide not to proceed with the pregnancy. You decide on termination (abortion). Even more traumatic and possibility of infection or worse. Then a lifetime of guilt.

At this point I don't believe the parents have any say in what the 13 year old can do. She can go to an abortion clinic and have an abortion...without parental consent. Or is the law different?

http://parentingteens.about.com/od/teenpregnancy/f/abortionlaws.htm

The answer depends on the state in which you live. Some states require notification of the teen’s parents, some require consent from one or both parents and some states have no policy. In the states with no policy, there is no consent or notification needed. A 13-year-old can get an abortion without notification to her parents.
Some states require an adult in the family to give consent, not necessarily the parent of the teen mother. It could be an aunt, uncle or older sibling. States that have the parental consent laws also have judicial bypass laws that would help teen girls who cannot obtain parental consent because of foster care situation or other problems.





​

 

[billc]

3. Your 13 year old daughter has unprotected sex and takes a pill the next day and has her normal period shortly after.

Your 13 year old daughter is having unprotected sex with an older sexual predator, say a teacher, or a coach, or a friends adult relative, and to hide this from you she and her predator, who she may think she is in love with, or he may just be intimidating her into having sex, are using the plan b pill to keep her from getting pregnant, and since she doesn't have to involve a doctor in the "process," of acquiring the pill, they can hide the relationship much more easily than in the past. Also, the predator doesn't have to worry that pregnancy will make his job of assaulting your daughter more difficult...he doesn't have to worry about that complication and can devote more energy to manipulating your daughter...

 

[Steve]

They aren't getting the sexual predator part of the post...

I think most everyone does and recognizes it as a lame attempt to stir up trouble.

and your points are valid Ballen, a 13 your old is still your child, not anyone elses and you are right to be concerned about side effects, or allergic reactions, or the fact that if she is secretly having sex without your knowledge that some professional, be it a doctor, or a public employee, like a school nurse, should be required to let you, her guardian, know.

All the while you guys both ignore the fact that your 13 year old daughter is secretly having sex without your knowledge... doesn't that seem like the REAL problem here? Or at least A real problem? Nevermind the idea that IF she is secretly having sex without your knowledge, you are advocating that she become a mom over making what might be the first mature decision she's made so far, which is to use a contraceptive... even if it is a day late.

I'll say this, Bill. We all have priorities and a sense of how we want to make decisions, but (and this is just my opinion), your ability to make a good decision is very, very questionable. Your priorities are incredibly suspect.

The actual focus of the post...

... was to start a fight. And as usual, you started it and then let other people fight it for you.

Believing a 13 year old has the capacity to make a decision impacting both her life and the life of her unborn baby...and your first grandchild...without parental guidance...it is truly a different world...

There's no baby if there's no pregnancy. Or is penetration the point at which life begins now? Or is there a proximity between the penis and the vagina at which life begins? You understand that this is a contraceptive. Don't you? You must.

At this point I don't believe the parents have any say in what the 13 year old can do. She can go to an abortion clinic and have an abortion...without parental consent. Or is the law different?

And, speaking as a parent, if the only influence you have with your 13 year old is legal influence, you're a very, very poor parent, indeed. Kids make mistakes.

 

[elder999]

.

The actual focus of the post...

...is a bat$h^t looney crock of B.S.
:lfao: It's a miserable, illogical canard, masquerading as sanity.

No predator is going to rape a girl and then force her to take a "morning after pill." He's just gonna strangle her after raping her, or let her go. If he....."seduced" her, she's gonna do what he says willingly, and won't need forcing or drain cleaner.

.

Believing a 13 year old has the capacity to make a decision impacting both her life and the life of her unborn baby...and your first grandchild...without parental guidance...it is truly a different world...


t this point I don't believe the parents have any say in what the 13 year old can do. She can go to an abortion clinic and have an abortion...without parental consent. Or is the law different?

http://parentingteens.about.com/od/teenpregnancy/f/abortionlaws.htm

I don't recall my parents having any say in any of the nefarious stuff (that was actually my nickname for a while, Nefarious... couldn't have been any cooler if I'd picked it out! :lfao: )that I did over the years.....I really can't recall:

asking their permission.

or apologizing afterward.

or thinking too much about the consequences......including becoming sexually active, staying sexually active, or having a rather delightful summer-long affair with the middle-aged lady whose pool I was cleaning for the summer of '75....:lfao:

of course, I'm a guy-the worst thing I got out of that besides some stories to not really tell, was a halfway decent song-lyric....:lfao:......if it had been available, though, and I'd been thinking about such things, I might have picked up the "morning after pill...." glad that it's available for my daughter, and 13 year old rape victims, and 13 year old girls who realize they've made a mistake (I do remember making a few of those when I was a teenager-one of them probably was, in fact, Mrs. Rosenthal......:lfao: )

In all seriousness, regardless of what you think about the ability of a 13 to make a decision about having sex, or getting pregnant, it really doesn't matter, Bill.

What matters is that you can't get pregnant. Ever.......I can only guess about the "having sex" part, and it's not pretty....:barf:

:lfao:

Seriously, a 13 year old girl who has decided to have sex is pretty much going to....there won't be anyone there to stop her, and she doesn't necessarily have to be running wild in the streets. I was "deflowered:" (can a guy say that if he isn't talking about having his anus penetrated? Probably not...let me rephrase that.....:lfao:...) I lost my virginity( ) when I was 14 to a girl who was nearly 18.......on a bet. I was in boarding school, it was a Saturday night, and there was no one there to make that decision for me but me. Of course, I was more than willing, and, back then-it was no big deal. Today, of course, she'd be a rapist or predator.....:lfao:.......probably back then, too, if my mom had known about it....:lfao:

....:lfao:...... I can just see it now, me on the corridor with the payphone ('cause nobody had cell-phones back in '74...) Ma....ma.....can I have your permission to have sex with a really hot 18 year old?. Mrs. Cuffee would have driven up there and torn the Hotchkiss School down brick by brick......:lfao:.....and hell, even if she just said "No," I'd have gone and done it anyway.....:good thing I didn't need a "morning after pill...: :lfao:.....I mean, seriously, dude....:lfao:...you crack me up!

(Mom, mom.....I know I don't have the capacity to make decisions about having sex or any potentially possible unborn children as yet not-conceived...( :lfao: )...but, can I have sex, Ma?....No, not with you!.....though I can think of a few women your age that I'd go for....in fact, these days I can't think of any women I wouldn't go for.....except for you....[/I] :lfao:

I mean.....:lfao:......just...:lfao:

 

[ballen0351]

I think most everyone does and recognizes it as a lame attempt to stir up trouble. All the while you guys both ignore the fact that your 13 year old daughter is secretly having sex without your knowledge... doesn't that seem like the REAL problem here? Or at least A real problem? Nevermind the idea that IF she is secretly having sex without your knowledge, you are advocating that she become a mom over making what might be the first mature decision she's made so far, which is to use a contraceptive... even if it is a day late.

It is a problem. We just have different solutions. Yours is Oh well do whatever you want as long as I dont know about it and you dont get pregnant I dont care. Well I do care I need to know about it and if you take a little time to be a parent its not hard to find out what your kids are and are not doing behind your back.

This attitude you and others are showing of "well as long as I dont know about it" is the same attitude that causes me to show up at your door at 3AM telling you we found your kid dead.

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator

 

[ballen0351]

at matters is that you can't get pregnant. Ever.......I can only guess about the "having sex" part, and it's not pretty....:barf:

So its ok on this site to make fun of someones sex life huh. I didnt know acting like an *** hole was ok here. Im out you guys can ban me or whatever you want

 

[Makalakumu]

So its ok on this site to make fun of someones sex life huh. I didnt know acting like an *** hole was ok here. Im out you guys can ban me or whatever you want

Agreed, so lets move on shall we?

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Adolescence-Rediscovering-Adult/dp/188495670X

This is a book that I think all parents of teenagers or potential parents of teenagers should read. It will save people a lot of grief.

This groundbreaking book argues that adolescence is an unnecessary period of life that people are better off without. Robert Epstein, former editor in chief of Psychology Today, shows that teen turmoil is caused by outmoded systems put in place a century ago which destroyed the continuum between childhood and adulthood. Where this continuum still exists in other countries, there is no adolescence. Isolated from adults, American teens learn everything they know from their media-dominated peers the last people on earth they should be learning from, says Epstein. Epstein explains that our teens are highly capable in some ways more capable than adults and argues strongly against infantilizing young people. We must rediscover the adult in every teen, he says, by giving young people adult authority and responsibility as soon as they can demonstrate readiness. This landmark book will change the thinking about teens for decades to come.

 

[Steve]

It is a problem. We just have different solutions. Yours is Oh well do whatever you want as long as I dont know about it and you dont get pregnant I dont care.

That is certainly not my solution. My solution is to be realistic about the current situation and then work to improve it. On the one hand, we need to be better parents, more consistent, more involved and more supportive in all ways. On the other, we have to protect society from those parents who will fail at the above. When a kid is having sex at 13 years old, there are a lot of emotional and physical things to deal with as a parent. When a kid is SECRETLY having sex at 13 years old, the issue isn't the sex.

Well I do care I need to know about it and if you take a little time to be a parent its not hard to find out what your kids are and are not doing behind your back.

But you missed the salient point, ballen. You don't know. You ALREADY don't know because you have spent 13 years raising a child that feels like she has to sneak around and do things behind your back.

This attitude you and others are showing of "well as long as I dont know about it" is the same attitude that causes me to show up at your door at 3AM telling you we found your kid dead.

The kid that is doing things in secret will do things in secret. The question isn't should the child take a contraceptive without the parent's knowledge. The right questions are, WHY does this child feel like she needs to solve big problems alone, without help from her parents? Why does this child feel backed into a corner without having a parent to talk to? Why is this child sneaking around at 13 and hiding big things from her parents?

You're doing a lot of judging and presuming that I'm ho hum about this. I understand that you hold your positions because you're concerned. If you don't reciprocate this respect, I don't know that we can have a constructive conversation about this. I can assure you that parenting is something I think about ALL THE TIME. I am very concerned about what my kids do, and it's precisely because I'm concerned. And there's not "as long as I don't know about it." Rather, it's acknowledging that some (many) parents drop the ball. Their kids get backed into a corner, and as I said before, using contraception is a MATURE decision. It's a smart decision. But that's not the real issue. The real issue, in my opinion, is why don't your kids trust you? (not "you" ballen, but in general)

Finally, let's be clear about this. Your alarmist handwringing is unconstructive. We're not talking about kids dead at 3 am. We're talking about contraception. You're trying to mix it all up, just as billc did, with atrocities like pedophilia and murder. These are red herrings in a dicussion about contraception. The morning after pill is neither a cause or solution to pedophilia, nor is it a reason why your kids will be murdered at 3am. It's kids having sex and lying about it to their parents.

 

[ballen0351]

Finally, let's be clear about this. Your alarmist handwringing is unconstructive. We're not talking about kids dead at 3 am. We're talking about contraception. You're trying to mix it all up, just as billc did, with atrocities like pedophilia and murder. These are red herrings in a dicussion about contraception. The morning after pill is neither a cause or solution to pedophilia, nor is it a reason why your kids will be murdered at 3am. It's kids having sex and lying about it to their parents.

Sure lets be clear about this. I have personally had to tell a parent we found there 14 year old dead from a drug OD. You know what the parents said to me "He was doing it behind our backs what were we supposed to do" SAME attitude I hear about this topic. So Im not mixing anything up. Its a condemnation of this attitude I see with parents that feed me that same BS line all the time. We don't know so what can we do. If your 13 year old can outsmart you then we have bigger problems then this. Kid lives in my house , I pay her bills, then I will check her phones, texts, facebook accounts, ect. Its my job to know what they are doing at all times. I don't care if she trusts me at 13 she will thank me at 33.

 

[Makalakumu]

Sure lets be clear about this. I have personally had to tell a parent we found there 14 year old dead from a drug OD. You know what the parents said to me "He was doing it behind our backs what were we supposed to do" SAME attitude I hear about this topic. So Im not mixing anything up. Its a condemnation of this attitude I see with parents that feed me that same BS line all the time. We don't know so what can we do. If your 13 year old can outsmart you then we have bigger problems then this. Kid lives in my house , I pay her bills, then I will check her phones, texts, facebook accounts, ect. Its my job to know what they are doing at all times. I don't care if she trusts me at 13 she will thank me at 33.

No amount of tyranny will give a person complete control. Parental tyranny is no different. Those children who get hurt through the poor guidance of their parents were not slain by freedom. They got hurt because of pitiful lazy parenting. The people who blame society, who say it's to free, to permissive, to liberal are simply trying to dodge their own responsibility...or perhaps their future responsibility in such matters.

This pill is a tool. It's far less dangerous than other tools, like a gun, and perhaps it's more useful. With any tool, it's the parents responsibility to teach. I don't want the State to restrict this tool any more than I want the State to restrict other tools, like guns.

Oh the irony...

 

[billc]

I don't believe any one here said to restrict access...to adults...just 13 year olds, or younger, who can't get an asprin in school without a parents permission, but can use this pill to hide sexual conduct without having to deal with a medical professional or parents...

 

[elder999]

So its ok on this site to make fun of someones sex life huh. I didnt know acting like an *** hole was ok here. Im out you guys can ban me or whatever you want

Really? That's really all you got out of what I posted, that I was "acting like an *** hole" (I was.) and "making fun of someone's sex life"? I was not, as I'll explain....look at the statement, "I can only guess about the 'having sex' part," and that much is true.....as for the rest of it, well, I have an aversion to imagining just about anyone besides myself having sex.....porn doesn't usually arouse me-at best, it makes me laugh......when I meet a couple, male and female, female and female., male and male, the last thing I can think of is the "having sex" part-it's usually not pretty, so I don't go there....I don't know that anyone actually does, but there have been times when I have-I have an extra active imagination-and it's.....distressing. As for Bill, yes, I'll ridicule his posts, when they're like this one, and completely worthy of ridicule, but I know next to nothing about him-I mean, I almost took a job at Fermi lab, instead of where I am now, in order to satisfy my tremendous man crush on him, but that's just my over-active imagination at work again....:lfao:

Seriously, though, the premise of the article from the original post is simply flawed-this isn't about "predators," who could use condoms, or simply groom a young girl to get birth control pills from Planned Parenthood.

It is a stupid, stupid, extra-stupid, alarmist article-specious rainbows of garbage. Sure, if you're against abortion, you're against this pill, which is really only meant for the first three days after unprotected sex, and simply makes the uterus inhospitable for implantation-I guess, if an egg has been fertilized, and a female does take this pill, you could call it an abortion of sorts, but how would you know? I mean, the article is not just stupid, but ugly in its stupidity and alarmism. It-unlike other topics here-is not even worthy of discussion-it is only worthy of ridicule-and so is anyone who seriously wants to discuss "the central point of the article"
:lfao:

This pill is an "emergency contraceptive" meant for females-women and girls-who have been raped, or inadvertently had unprotected sex-it's available for their peace of mind, really, since the odds of becoming pregnant from one-time unprotected sex are about 2.5%. So, discussing it as an "abortion" is silly-like that damned ninny nurse in Albuquerque who kept interfering with women's IUD's.....

Now,I raised my kids from the beginning to think for themselves-and Ronnie Reagan's words, "trust but verify" could describe my parenting style. I also made a point of always talking with them, and not just to them-and never, as so many do, at them. So it was that my son could come to me and talk about his friends using recreational drugs, or drinking, and my daughter could come out to me-at a pretty young age-as a teen who was pretty sure she was a lesbian. I sometimes knew what my kids were doing, and where they were, because they told me, and I sometimes-as is inevitable-did not. My kids were educated and drilled on condom use, and consequences-these days, with my son's 7th wedding anniversary tomorrow, and me still without grandchildren, I think maybe too well, but that's really none of my business :lol:

And I could only guess when and with whom they both became sexually active, because, well, you know.....it's not pretty :barf:
:lol:

 

[Steve]

Sure lets be clear about this. I have personally had to tell a parent we found there 14 year old dead from a drug OD. You know what the parents said to me "He was doing it behind our backs what were we supposed to do" SAME attitude I hear about this topic. So Im not mixing anything up. Its a condemnation of this attitude I see with parents that feed me that same BS line all the time. We don't know so what can we do. If your 13 year old can outsmart you then we have bigger problems then this. Kid lives in my house , I pay her bills, then I will check her phones, texts, facebook accounts, ect. Its my job to know what they are doing at all times. I don't care if she trusts me at 13 she will thank me at 33.

Ballen. You ARE mixing it up because no one here is suggesting that it's okay for a kid to do things behind the parent's back. We... well, at least I am suggesting that the problem is larger than sex or the use of contraception.

Take pot or alcohol. If a kid WANTS to get these things, they can. They will. Even your kids, whether you like it or not. So, as a parent, the solution isn't the law. That isn't a barrier if other things are broken. The solution is to be a strong role model, to foster a real, genuine relationship built on trust, to make your kids feel safe telling you things you don't want to hear, and to (as much as possible) ensure as a parent that the mistakes that they DO make are constructive life lessons and not insurmountable shackles.

You have a tough job. I don't envy you and I'm sure that you deal with some very seriously effed up situations. I appreciate the work you do and I'm glad you're doing it. But THAT isn't THIS.

 

[Steve]

I don't believe any one here said to restrict access...to adults...just 13 year olds, or younger, who can't get an asprin in school without a parents permission, but can use this pill to hide sexual conduct without having to deal with a medical professional or parents...

Well, you did mention adults in the OP. Or does the term "adult" mean something else on extremist conservative propoganda websites quoted by the devout:

"Of course, no adult male plans to get an eleven-year-old girl pregnant, but if he does, he now has a "Plan B" -- courtesy of the Obama administration."

 

[elder999]

Well, you did mention adults in the OP. Or does the term "adult" mean something else on extremist conservative propoganda websites quoted by the devout:

"Of course, no adult male plans to get an eleven-year-old girl pregnant, but if he does, he now has a "Plan B" -- courtesy of the Obama administration."

And if, in fact, Bill had proposed not permitting men on a sex criminal registry to obtain the drug, or, better yet, all men, since we have no use or need of it, that would be a topic worthy of discussion, instead of the fatuous and pudding-headed, alarmist glurge presented in his OP....

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't believe any one here said to restrict access...to adults...just 13 year olds, or younger, who can't get an asprin in school without a parents permission, but can use this pill to hide sexual conduct without having to deal with a medical professional or parents...

You still support restricted access. That is the State interfering with the lives of individuals...and in this case, completely capable individuals. If even one individual13 year old is capable of using this pill responsibly, you've trod on her rights.

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen. You ARE mixing it up because no one here is suggesting that it's okay for a kid to do things behind the parent's back. We... well, at least I am suggesting that the problem is larger than sex or the use of contraception.

Take pot or alcohol. If a kid WANTS to get these things, they can. They will. Even your kids, whether you like it or not. So, as a parent, the solution isn't the law. That isn't a barrier if other things are broken. The solution is to be a strong role model, to foster a real, genuine relationship built on trust, to make your kids feel safe telling you things you don't want to hear, and to (as much as possible) ensure as a parent that the mistakes that they DO make are constructive life lessons and not insurmountable shackles.

You have a tough job. I don't envy you and I'm sure that you deal with some very seriously effed up situations. I appreciate the work you do and I'm glad you're doing it. But THAT isn't THIS.

I didn't say you were OK with kids doing this I would hope no parents are OK. You and others come across as "well they are going to do it anyway so what can we do about it". That's where we differ. I don't want to just throw up my hands and say oh well. By making this drug available to kids with out parental consent you are basically leaving you kid out to dry. Making them make tough life altering choices by themselves when they are not mature enough to make these choices.
I have never once asked for no access to these pills my concern is unrestricted access to minors.

 

[ballen0351]

You still support restricted access. That is the State interfering with the lives of individuals...and in this case, completely capable individuals. If even one individual13 year old is capable of using this pill responsibly, you've trod on her rights.

13 year olds don't have rights. Sorry its how it is. If they did they could vote, drink, not be forced to attend school, get full time jobs ect all things we as a collective society decided.