A question aimed at dan ranks, but anyone can answer

[now disabled]

primarily, but not formally.... i came as vistiting tsd practitioner.
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in fact i i haven't ever formally enrolled in an akido dojo.

Cool bro

If you get a chance look at the Yoshinkan it is more akin to the pre war style than the Aikikai is

 

[oftheherd1]

I'm not saying grappling doesn't work. I'm saying that as a 3rd Dan in TKD and a not-even-Dan in HKD, kicking works better if I need to defend myself.

In the Hapkido I learned, we did have kicks. We practiced them as warm ups and with some of our defenses, mostly as a technique finisher.

Our HKD is more of an elective to our TKD. In the TKD, we do some minor weapon work, so that doesn't need to be in our HKD class.

I think from the way you have described what you study, that would be accurate. But even that much should give you some good counters that would not be anticipated by an opponent. Good on your teacher for teaching it, and you for studying it.

 

[dvcochran]

I do KKW Taekwondo. While we use the older Palgwe forms (and actually a version of them only used by our school and one other school, to my knowledge), the Taegeuks suffer this problem as well: there are barely any kicks. We have front kicks in most of our forms. Side kicks come in our blue and red belt forms, as well as a couple crescent kicks at red belt.

Never in our forms do we do roundhouse kicks, back kicks, hook kicks, or pretty much any kicks at all. In the kicking art. While it's been a while since I looked at the Taegeuks, I think you can do all 8 of them and do a total of maybe a dozen kicks. (Someone who does them can correct me). At our school, between the 5 basic Kibon forms and the 8 advanced Palgwe forms, we do:

• 44 front kicks (ok, so maybe quite a few of those)
• 8 side kicks
• 3 crescent kicks
• 1 back kick

This is all the forms needed to get your black belt. Each form has a minimum of 20 hand techniques, so aside from front kicks (which are fairly common) you have 8 side kicks, 3 crescent kicks, and a single back kick. These aren't done with the same footwork you will use for TKD sparring, and are not done in combination with each other.

Compare that to the drills we run, which feature:

• Different kicks, to include front kick, pushing kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, step-behind side kick, axe kick, step-behind hook kick, spinning hook kick, and tornado kick
• Different footwork, including step-through kicks, sliding kicks, jumping kicks, switch-kicks, double kicks, and repeated kicks
• Advanced combinations such as multiple kicks without placing your foot down

Now, part of this is the nature of Taekwondo as it has evolved away from Shotokan and TSD towards being an olympic sport based on kicks, without rejecting the hand techniques in the forms. We do train some of these kicks in our self-defense scenarios, (the fancier kicks are used a lot less, front kicks and roundhouse kicks a lot more, and often after grabbing your attacker's arm). But again, you don't see them in the forms at all.

I'm kind of curious what a Taekwondo form would look like if it sought to include all of the kicks we teach. But as it stands, those don't really show up in the poomsae.

We use a similar set of Poomse. However I know of only 3 Kibon (Kicho Hyung)forms. Can you explain #4 & #5 or do you know of a video? We practice 3 Kibon, 5 Pinon (Pyong An), 8 Palgwe, 8 Taeguek but there is not a lot of emphasis on the Taegueks. For color belt testing, the first 3 sets are required. For the more active and interested students who stay ahead of the curve the additional forms are taught.

 

[TSDTexan]

We use a similar set of Poomse. However I know of only 3 Kibon (Kicho Hyung)forms. Can you explain #4 & #5 or do you know of a video? We practice 3 Kibon, 5 Pinon (Pyong An), 8 Palgwe, 8 Taeguek but there is not a lot of emphasis on the Taegueks. For color belt testing, the first 3 sets are required. For the more active and interested students who stay ahead of the curve the additional forms are taught.

The kibons (korean pronunciation for the hanji), also are called taiyoku kata or alternately called kihon kata... do not originate in Okinawa.

They were created in Japan, and all my research indicates they were created by Gigō (Yoshitaka) Funakoshi. They were part of his overhaul of the Shotokan's methods.

His entry level kata were broadly adopted in japan, into many other styles.

 

[JR 137]

The kibons (korean pronunciation for the hanji), also are called taiyoku kata or alternately called kihon kata... do not originate in Okinawa.

They were created in Japan, and all my research indicates they were created by Gigō (Yoshitaka) Funakoshi. They were part of his overhaul of the Shotokan's methods.

His entry level kata were broadly adopted in japan, into many other styles.

I thought Gichin Funakoshi created the Taikyoku kata?

 

[TSDTexan]

I thought Gichin Funakoshi created the Taikyoku kata?

That isn't correct. He gave advice about it to his son. But the kata came from his son.

The really deep stances like zenkutsu-dachi came from Gigo's reformation of the art. Gichin Funakoshi never went as low/deep.

According to my Hanshi... Toyama's view about these kata... is that they were so basic they were redundant. The pinans were basic enough for entry level, and Toyama had his own Kyokyu series of seven kata, which start with the same basic embusen. Think capital I or H. But with a lot more going on then block, punch, turn block, punch, turn block, punch punch punch. turn around... and repeat.

So Toyama never taught them to the Ichikawa brothers who started in the Shudokan at age 6 and 7. (In later 1941.)

 

[JR 137]

That isn't correct. He gave advice about it to his son. But the kata came from his son.

The really deep stances like zenkutsu-dachi came from Gigo's reformation of the art. Gichin Funakoshi never went as low/deep.

According to my Hanshi... Toyama's view about these kata... is that they were so basic they were redundant. The pinans were basic enough for entry level, and Toyama had his own Kyokyu series of seven kata, which start with the same basic embusen. Think capital I or H. But with a lot more going on then block, punch, turn block, punch, turn block, punch punch punch. turn around... and repeat.

So Toyama never taught them to the Ichikawa brothers who started in the Shudokan at age 6 and 7. (In later 1941.)

Interesting. According to Wikipedia, which is THE AUTHORITY on everything they were in fact developed by Gigo Funakoshi, and named and introduced by Gichin Funakoshi.

I learn something new everyday.

 

[TSDTexan]

Interesting. According to Wikipedia, which is THE AUTHORITY on everything they were in fact developed by Gigo Funakoshi, and named and introduced by Gichin Funakoshi.

I learn something new everyday.

the day you dont learn something, that is a wasted day. The day you cannot learn something... is the day you died.

 

[TSDTexan]

Interesting. According to Wikipedia, which is THE AUTHORITY on everything they were in fact developed by Gigo Funakoshi, and named and introduced by Gichin Funakoshi.

I learn something new everyday.

"Karate-do Kyohan" has an interesting take on the matter. Allegedly, Gigo wrote the technical aspects. But it was published under the name of Master Gitchin Funakoshi.

Gitchin, couldn't bring himself to release a 2nd edition. The 1976 2nd edition was posthumously published by the heads of the Shotokai.

If Gigo had already passed, in November of 1945, due to his lung illness, it would make the matter very difficult (emotionally, and other wise) for Gitchin Sensei.


but... given that the technical sections were penned by Gigo... here is a photo from my pdf.

its found chapter 4, p.35

 

[_Simon_]

That isn't correct. He gave advice about it to his son. But the kata came from his son.

The really deep stances like zenkutsu-dachi came from Gigo's reformation of the art. Gichin Funakoshi never went as low/deep.

According to my Hanshi... Toyama's view about these kata... is that they were so basic they were redundant. The pinans were basic enough for entry level, and Toyama had his own Kyokyu series of seven kata, which start with the same basic embusen. Think capital I or H. But with a lot more going on then block, punch, turn block, punch, turn block, punch punch punch. turn around... and repeat.

So Toyama never taught them to the Ichikawa brothers who started in the Shudokan at age 6 and 7. (In later 1941.)

Just popped in here, wow that's fascinating, did not know that . The Taikyoku katas are quite basic, which I think was the point, but yeah Pinan ichi being quite similar and could be used as the standard basic kata to be drilled perhaps. I don't mind training any of them, they all serve a purpose

 

[JR 137]

"Karate-do Kyohan" has an interesting take on the matter. Allegedly, Gigo wrote the technical aspects. But it was published under the name of Master Gitchin Funakoshi.

Gitchin, couldn't bring himself to release a 2nd edition. The 1976 2nd edition was posthumously published by the heads of the Shotokai.

If Gigo had already passed, in November of 1945, due to his lung illness, it would make the matter very difficult (emotionally, and other wise) for Gitchin Sensei.


but... given that the technical sections were penned by Gigo... here is a photo from my pdf.

its found chapter 4, p.35

View attachment 21788

Interestingly enough, I’ve heard many times that the Taikyoku kata were developed by Funakoshi to teach beginners an intro to kata, of sorts. I guess I just always assumed the Funakoshi they were referring to was Gichin Funakoshi rather than anyone else. I mean, whenever someone says Funakoshi, I don’t ask which one If someone told me Miyagi developed a specific kata, I’d automatically think Chojun Miyagi rather than his son or anyone else. I’m sure I’m not the only one who assumed Gichin Funakoshi created Taikyoku when someone says it was created by Funakoshi.

 

[TSDTexan]

Just popped in here, wow that's fascinating, did not know that . The Taikyoku katas are quite basic, which I think was the point, but yeah Pinan ichi being quite similar and could be used as the standard basic kata to be drilled perhaps. I don't mind training any of them, they all serve a purpose

In early tsd publications the graphic use to symbolize the kibons was a baby learning to walk. But I think of it as a jumbo pencil. Its akin to something easy to grasp and make your first crude attempts at making capital letters.