A question about "hammering"?

[Cruentus]

A qoute by Whoopass in a different thread sparked my interest to post this thread here. He said....

Too bad that you've been hammered here. Keep in mind there are other folks who are quite decent in their posts. Of course, there are those who try to have it both ways.

The context of this quote isn't really important, but I am wondering about the feelings on "hammering".

Considering that I put Whoopass on the spot, I do want to back him up to say that his point is very valid. I think that it's noble to not want to see anyone getting hammered, especially between members of the same art. To outsiders, two people argueing publically can make the art look bad, regardless of who is right.

On the other hand....

I also see validity in publically calling someone out, and questioning their actions. I don't think people should immaturily "hammer" each other (like call each other names, challange each other, etc.), even though it does happend when emotions run amok, and people are passionate about what they do. Unfortunatily, I have definatily been a culprit of "hammering.:hammer: However, I do see validity in openly questioning and/or disagreeing with someone if tastefully done.

Here is why....

In most industries, if you misrepresent yourself, or act unethically, you can potentially be punished by law. In the Martial Arts industry, you can make all the fraudulent claims that you want, act as unethically from a business prospective as you want, and there is little to no legal reprocutions. So, The only way we can "check and balance" each other, to ensure that truth and purity prevails in the system(s) that we love is to openly discuss (and sometimes argue, or question actions and motives). This is a way we can keep each other honest.

I see wrong in immaturely trying to "hammer" someone, but I think that an open discussion, even if it means questioning someone else, does more GOOD then it does harm.

What do you all think? I wanna hear everyone's thoughts/feelings on the matter. What do YOU define as hammering? Where should (or shouldn't) the line be drawn?

If you believe that public argueing is wrong all together, and that everything in the public eye should be "positive" and that no one should ever say anything negative or even questioning about someone else, then in what other ways, do you suggest, that we "check and balance" each other?

Sorry for the long post, but due to work constraints I really won't be able to address this thread until next week sometime. However, I value all of your opinions and input, and I would be happy to address the thread (and any questions you may have for me) next week.

I look foward to hearing your response.

Thanks!
:cheers:
PAUL
:asian:

 

[bloodwood]

Recently I asked several tough questions of Dan Anderson. To many it looked like I was hammering Dan. I did not see it that way and Dan did not take it that way either. I kept asking and he kept answering until I was satisfied. If you can't answer a tough question then there probably is a reason there for you to get hammered. If you are legitimate and on the up and up just answer the question and move on. This is how Dan handled it and everyone now knows where he stands and his position on some controversial things. I think he is all the better for it.

If someone does things that are against what is considered OK by the majority then they should expect to take some heat for it. Like Paul said, it is a way to keep folks in check and honest.
Now if somebody takes a shot at you and you shoot back, this is an entirely different animal. We try to avoid this and try to smooth things out here on Martial Talk but sometimes it happens and needs to run it's course.
There are also cases where someone is getting hammered unjustly and if it is unfair then most of the time others will come to the defense of the person getting hammered and put a stop to it, or at least question the reason for the attack. If no one comes to your aide then you probably deserve the hammering. This is not always the case but most of the time.

Is hammering good? Sure, why not. Sometimes it has it's place. Maybe we can make it a new art form. ( I hope I don't get hammered for saying that).


:argue: :hammer: :angry: :cheers:

 

[Guro Harold]

Its one thing to hammer, its another to throw personal, low, or cheap shots in the mist of it. Those rules only apply in a street fight, not in a "friendly discussion" forum.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Let's not confuse this with debating either. I love to debate things, but after I'm done we can all go out for a drink!
:drinkbeer

 

[Rich Parsons]

Asking Tough Questions is good.

Making people defend their version of the truth is good.

Hammering on your friends to get the bragging rights or just for pleasure is good.

To make disparaging remarks at a persons expense in particular when they are not here to defend themselves in not very good.

In my quest for knowledge, one time, I was perceived to have been aggressive and attacking, etc. , ..., . After re-reading the post I replied with an apology that explained I was only asking the questions for more knowledge on my part, not an accusation.

So, intent sometimes can be hard to determine. If you use your words and smiles properly then you can communicate your intent.

Just my Opinion

Rich
:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

As one who has received a hammering or two, let me throw my two cents.

Questioning, tough or otherwise, or challenging data which seems to be non-factual is not hammering. Asking for personal viewpoints whether they be popular or not is not hammering. Continued asking of a question until it is answered in plain language is not hammering. Calling someone on the carpet for wrong doing is not hammering.

Going for low shots, insults regarding a person and their opinions, beliefs, attitudes and non-damaging practices IS hammering. It shows a weakness and disregard on the part of the hammerer AND I am including myself in this. I have hammered Jeff Delaney in print without actually talking with him first and that I should not have done.

Blood,
You just asked questions until you got them answered. I felt no hammer.

Renegade,
I like the drink during the debate.

Rich,
I use the term "dogging" for friendly going after friends. Renegade and I do that constantly.

All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Happy Birthday to me,
Happy Birthday to me
Happy Birthdday dear Super Dan
Happy Birthday to me.
The Semi-Centennial Novemberfest (usually a yearly celebration of the continued existance of me) is being held today. You may visit my website to get the address you can send expensive gifts to. I have not received the Bose Wave cd player yet.

 

[bloodwood]

This is a request of everyone. Please no hammering of Dan on his birthday. Tomorrow is OK though.

Dan, enjoy you celebration and have a Happy Birthday

Bloodwood :cheers: :wavey:

 

[arnisador]

Congratulations on your continued existence!

(P.S. The book arrived and I hope to post a review at some point. Thanks!)

 

[Rich Parsons]

Dan,


Happy Birthday,

Enjoy many more

Rich

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Happy B-day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hey, Happy B-Day Dan!


One of the reasons for this forum is to discuss things in a (hopefully) mature and friendly manner. Sometimes emotions run high and the heat rises. Our jobs as moderators is to keep things running smooth, and jumping in when the members don't reign things back on their own.

There are many folks out there who run organizations, hold high positions in orgs, high ranks in arts, etc. who are members here. Often times, these high-profile folks have alot of attention directed at them. It is in the midst of all this that you can often see what lies behind the text.

A couple examples:

Dan Anderson got hit with questions about his MA-80 program, position within the WMAA, his promoting his books, what he said, who he said it to, and his religious beliefs. We as mods nixed the last 3, and you folks maturely discussed the rest.

Michael Bates got hit with questions about his use of the title 'professor', and there have been discussions on why he left JD, etc. Those topics are still ongoing, and for the most part, while heated, are still within the limits for mature discussion.

Jeff Delany has been hit with questions on why he suddenly went from 3rd to 5th to GM and successor, the disintegration of his organization and a couple dozen other things. No reply has been recieved from him.

There have been dozens of other issues here...we've had to get involved with very few of them, in most cases a friendly nudge is all thats been needed to calm things down enough.

Regarding the hammering....its very simple. If you stick your neck out, someones going to call you on it, and how you respond (or react) goes a long way in determining your reputation. I can easily claim to be a GM, a 10th dan, or whatever. I can print out a nice certificate, scribble a few signatures, and get a nice frame at Walmart no problem. I can do enough cut-n-paste to appear like I know alot online, but someday I'd have to get on the mat..and theres where the truth lies.

The line (which is subject to revision) we will hold is simple: Keep it professional, and not personal. I don't really care if someone thinks rocks are magical or dances nekid in the woods in the spring...hows their martial skill? Can they walk the walk? I don't care if they are black, white, red, yellow, green, or blue. I dont care if they are hetro or homo. I don't care if they have 12 wives. Its none of my business. All I want to know is, are they as good a martial artist as they claim, and can they do what they claim they can do.

The only exception is for sexual preditors. Those I personally feel should be exposed.

Thats a non-offical listing mind you....just my personal opinion.

Sorry if all thats a bit rambly....the happy pills have kicked in for my back so i'm fuzzin out.

peace.:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Thank you one and all. Officially, my birthday is tomorrow on the 18th. This means you still have time to wire transfer to my account large amounts of cash for my birthday and be on time.

Here's a fun but simple one to solve. I have a 9th degree black belt certificate signed by Remy Presas. What gives? A no-prize goes to first one to figure this one out. :rofl:

All for now.

Thanks again for the well wishing. I'm looking forward to the next fifty years.

Dan

 

[dearnis.com]

Hey; I bet I know!
You have a sig from Remy as a board member on a karate (or other non-Modern Arnis martial art) certificate.....
Chad

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Dan has presigned diplomas from Remy and filled one out for himself.

 

[dearnis.com]

and here I was being nice for his birthday.
:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Thank you one and all. Officially, my birthday is tomorrow on the 18th. This means you still have time to wire transfer to my account large amounts of cash for my birthday and be on time.

Here's a fun but simple one to solve. I have a 9th degree black belt certificate signed by Remy Presas. What gives? A no-prize goes to first one to figure this one out. :rofl:

All for now.

Thanks again for the well wishing. I'm looking forward to the next fifty years.

Dan

No Fair, I just got back from my Sunday Classes.

I would have to say that either you had a certificate for your own American Free Style Karate that amongst the signatures was Remy Presas. Or you photo copied a certificate and then wrote your new rank in. Or maybe just maybe, The person who filled out the certificate is dyslexic like myself and wrote a numeric 9 when they should have wrote a 6?

Lots of possibilities, and I go with the dyslexic one just because.

Happy B-day again since it is now the 18th

Rich

 

[Cruentus]

Today is the 18th!

Thanks for your responses to my thread. I am looking for a few more, however.

I particularly would like to know Whoopass and Mao's feelings on the subject, if they are reading this. Just because it was something Whoopass had said that made me think of asking this question. I know both of them have defended others who they have felt recieved an unjust "hammering" in the past. For the record, I have nothing against that at all, but I am interested in their opinions on the subject in general. So, guys....if your reading this, I do value your opinion!

:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade

Dan has presigned diplomas from Remy and filled one out for himself.

Yep,
Ain't I a stinker. You know how hard it was to align the print on my computer to match up to the design of the cert? Hee hee.

Humorously yours,
Moi