OP
RyuShiKan
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- Thread Starter
- #21
I have to agree with Blindside on this.
- Status
I have to agree with Blindside on this.
Bob,
Yes...and yes
To crunch down the content of "Soke" in the above article....it's a lineage situation. Something of tradition has been passed to you...and you are Japanese. Soke means 'Head of the Family'....not Grandmaster or Super-Master-Ultra-HeadMaster person.
Angier sensei is a special case. Yanagi ryu's previous Soke passed the ryuha to him after he relocated to California. If I recall correctly, Angier sensei explained that lineage and the like was never of much interest to him until after his teacher died.
Yes...and yes
To crunch down the content of "Soke" in the above article....it's a lineage situation. Something of tradition has been passed to you...and you are Japanese. Soke means 'Head of the Family'....not Grandmaster or Super-Master-Ultra-HeadMaster person.
Angier sensei is a special case. Yanagi ryu's previous Soke passed the ryuha to him after he relocated to California. If I recall correctly, Angier sensei explained that lineage and the like was never of much interest to him until after his teacher died.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #23
I think the last section of this guys article/definition says it all:
Here's a link of an article that Don Angier wrote:
My Career in Yanagi-ryu Aiki Jujutsu
Wow...all those poor legitimate Soke in Japan are all out for money!
That's stretching things a bit far. There are plenty of Soke of koryu bujutsu schools that use the title properly.
My Career in Yanagi-ryu Aiki Jujutsu
Wow...all those poor legitimate Soke in Japan are all out for money!
That's stretching things a bit far. There are plenty of Soke of koryu bujutsu schools that use the title properly.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #25
Originally posted by Jay Bell
Wow...all those poor legitimate Soke in Japan are all out for money!
That's stretching things a bit far. There are plenty of Soke of koryu bujutsu schools that use the title properly.
Maybe...maybe not. However, I have met several bogus Soke in Japan as well so being Japanese doesn't make one immune.
I'm glad you did clear that up because then I was really gonna start to wonder about you.:rofl:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Why would you wonder about your welcome, or anyone's for that matter? This is an open, public (though moderated) forum. Everyone, regardless of their opinion, art, etc., is welcome. Even complete loonies and bizarros (like me!
).The only person I have ever heard of having an authentic claim to such a lofty title as soke was Don Angier. It was my understanding (and while I would hope to avoid a ninja flame war, perhaps someone from the X-kans can clarify this info) that Hatsumi didn't start using the title soke until long after he was famous for what he taught.
My personal bottom line is that I have some specific difficulties with people who get their ranking in art X from people outside of art X - how can they rank you if they don't practice/study the same art? If it was from an organization that taught the same standardized art as the organization the individual belonged to, then that wouldn't be so bad. But for organizations and associations to spring up whose only purpose seems to be the mutual granting of rather impressive though misused and misunderstood titles causes me some concern. I'm not trying to attack ZDW for this, just soliciting his explanation. If his explanation seems plausible, then fine. If not... :idunno:
He doesn't owe me a thing. I admit that openly and freely. However, making claims like his in public should be approached with some degree of skepticism. Our arts have enough trouble as it is maintaining legitimacy without people inflating their ranks and titles in order to draw students and income (and we all know that never happens, right?).
In Japan (of all places) it is actually considered a polite and recommended thing to ask a teacher for his credentials instead of just taking his/her word for it... I would think it would be a similar situation here in the US where we maintain the caveat of "buyer beware."
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Hatsumi sensei has always been called Soke....since he received his densho and maki from Takamatsu sensei.
I think the bottom line is that an enormous amount of individuals use the title incorrectly...and have no right to it. It seems to be the very "in" thing to do when founding your own art. There are, though, many individuals in (and one out) of Japan that are...and use the term as they should.
Asayama Ichiden ryu - Ozaki Kiyoshi
Daito ryu - Katsuyuki Kondo (Soke Dairi)
Hontai Yoshin ryu - Inoue Tsuyoshi
Ono-ha Itto ryu - Sasamori Takemi
Yagyu Shingan ryu - Muto Masao
etc etc...
I think the bottom line is that an enormous amount of individuals use the title incorrectly...and have no right to it. It seems to be the very "in" thing to do when founding your own art. There are, though, many individuals in (and one out) of Japan that are...and use the term as they should.
Asayama Ichiden ryu - Ozaki Kiyoshi
Daito ryu - Katsuyuki Kondo (Soke Dairi)
Hontai Yoshin ryu - Inoue Tsuyoshi
Ono-ha Itto ryu - Sasamori Takemi
Yagyu Shingan ryu - Muto Masao
etc etc...
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #29
Actually Meik Skoss was offered/awarded the top position (Sokeship ?) for Toda Ha BukoRyu but turned it down stating that he was moving to America and wanted the art to remain in Japan.
His skill is exceptional by the way.
OP
chufeng
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #30
Jay,
Thank you for the "other side" of the argument...balance is a good thing...
I am not interested in questioning those who are legitimate...
but, HOW do I determine legitimacy?
I am concerned about those who would use a title inappropriately to further his own financial gain at the cost of dragging down all of the arts...
:asian:
chufeng
Thank you for the "other side" of the argument...balance is a good thing...
I am not interested in questioning those who are legitimate...
but, HOW do I determine legitimacy?
I am concerned about those who would use a title inappropriately to further his own financial gain at the cost of dragging down all of the arts...
:asian:
chufeng
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #31
Chufeng,
I am sure if you read some of the bios by people claiming Soke-ness the usual red flags will start popping up.
They might seem very Castro-esque if you know what I mean
I am sure if you read some of the bios by people claiming Soke-ness the usual red flags will start popping up.
They might seem very Castro-esque if you know what I mean
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
I bow to what I would consider to be (hopefully) your better informed commentary. I will say, though, having been a wannabe follower of the ninja craze back in my school days (the only ninjutsu training available back then in my town was Robert Bussey's Ninja Academy - 'nuff said), and I can't recall Hatsumi being called anything but sensei for quite a long time... I admit though that my memory is fuzzy on when the soke title supplanted sensei as his public title...
Whatever.
I think the thing is that if a person has a legitimate tie to a title or position, supporting it wouldn't be much of a request to honor. On the other hand... :idunno:
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
The Pangainoon derived from Uechi-ryu or the Pangai-noon from which Uechi-ryu is derived?
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #34
I got this from this website
http://www.usadr.iwarp.com/ just curious as to what it means.
Sorry, I just read that and dan factory keeps coming to mind .
I have seen people from dan factories sign up on martial BBs before in order to "recruit" new members (i.e. make money).
Sorry, I just read that and dan factory keeps coming to mind .
I have seen people from dan factories sign up on martial BBs before in order to "recruit" new members (i.e. make money).
OP
A.R.K.
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #35
Jason, thats ok my friend but I appreciate the back-up. I feel that perhaps some of the mildly hostile remarks/questions deal with issues within the individual poster that existed long before I ever posted here. That is fine, and I look forward to discussing things here. Good way to get the ball rolling so to speak. If I miss any particular element you will have to forgive me as quite a few things are on the table. I will address them as I recall them.
Yiliquan1,
I would perhaps respectfully suggest you reread my post, with objectivity. No disrespect was offered or mentioned to traditional systems or styles. The comment was on the 'sport' version of these systems. I work in a Maximum security Correctional Facility with felon to death row inmates. Sport karate i.e styles that teach point-sparring techniques and fancy, complicated techniques will get you seriously injured in these types of environments. Perhaps you disagree with this as is your right.
However I will offer two quick points for consideration. First, I have had over 200 uses-of-force against violent felons. I don't say this in a proud way, quite the contrary, with the amount of years I have had on the job these were incidents in which all of my non-force options were taken away BY the felon. I was left no viable choice other than to use physical force to prevent injury/death to myself, other Deputies, other inmates or to prevent the individual from further harming themselves. Point-sparring or even full contact sparring cannot and will not prepare you for this type of environment in our society today. Competetions and tournements have rules and a referee therefore they do not fully take hold of a reality life/death situation. I say this not to diminish participants of such events, they are tough and well trained. But it does not take into account an individual who through drug use or psychotic affliction feels absoulutely no pain and has superhuman strength...and wants very much to kill you NOW! Which leads to my second point. Many fellow Deputies who were in trditional 'sport' versions have dramatically come to the realistic conclusion that they were unprepared for violent assaults. That is why they have sought me out for training.
Does this mean I'm special or invincible. No... it does not! I have not reinvented the wheel I have merely added a spoke. Which is the same thing a myriad of Martial Artists have done before me. I have lent my hand into it with the experiences that I have garnered in my life time. Between the military and LEO I have two decades of realworld hand-to-hand combat experience which I have needed to live to type this post today. Not dojo sparring, not refereed tournements but real life against real BG's. This concept may offend some here but so be it. I am not impressed with a 250 lbs UFC fighter that competes [not taking away from his talent,skill or heart] but I am impressed with the 120 lbs housewife that successfully defeats a would be rapist or the 170lbs Deputy that defeats an inmate attempting to shank him in the throat. This is MY venue...my arena.
My training in Pangai-noon, Shuri-Te, Judo, Ju Jitsu [small circle], Krav Maga and Chin Na has lend to my experience as have the LEO-only training courses that I have attended. My hope is that this clarifies what I consider 'sport' versions of karate. They are great for many people in many areanas. They inspire discipline and focus. They increase vitality and alertness. But they will not prepare an individual for what awaits behind the concrete walls of our correctional system or the concrete of the inner-city streets. With all due respect I will debate this with anyone that takes issue with it. There is a place for an aerial spinning back kick...in the ring, not in a 5 x 8 cell or balcony.
Numbered Dan titles differ from style to style in different parts of the world. Shichidan may not mean 7th Dan to you, but it does to many others.
As far as Dan rankings go, I think people worry about them too much in general. I cannot speak for all styles and systems but in general [the ones I am familiar with]there is essentially no new information learned after Shodan. Perhaps additional kata, but for the most part it is time in grade and teaching experience. Some systems have a long time in between grades and some not quite so long. It seems that the industry norm seems to be [in general] your current Dan in years to advance to the next higher. For example a 2nd to 3rd would be 2 years. Again this is a generality but I have seen many of the oldest organizations go by this guideline.
But it is ALL-subjective. Not just in this country but in the Orient perhaps more so. It is a sad fact that in certain styles if you are of Asian heritage you can buy a Dan, sometimes a very high Dan. And also if you are non-Asian you will pay thru the nose for a legitimate long over due advancement. I do not say this of the industry as a whole, but it has and does happen in both the West as well as the East. I don't buy into the mystical notion that the Orient has some monopoly or advantage over the rest of the world when it comes to Martial Arts. Many instructors in more traditional systems simply can't afford to advance to the next Dan. Some styles require you to fly over to the home country and test. That is just not always feasible.
Grandmaster Dunn by the way founded the USADR long before we met. As a retired LEO he has much pratical experience and we now cross-train with several other individuals. He has honored me with formal recognition within his organization and later asked we to sit on the board. In turn I have recognized him within my system with a rank that had already been achieved in more traditional styles. I have similarly recognized several individuals with their previous experience and simply cross-ranked them. Zhao Dai Wei is NOT a traditional system in which a participant MUST learn MY way. It is tailor made to each student with emphasis on what works best for them. As an instructor it does not matter what I can do...only what I can teach YOU to do. If a Black Belt comes to me for training I recognize him as a Black Belt. I don't play the game of 'well I didn't promote you so I won't recognize you'. I don't deal well with politics...in fact I absolutely will not play those games. I have a good friend who is a Nidan in Uechi-ryu. He wishes to train with me for the grappling/ground fighting applications as he is also a fellow Deputy. I not only allow but encourage him to wear his Black Belt, because he has earned it. If he choses to stay with me for continued training I will recognize him at that level [given consistant training and application] within my system.
As far as the system of Zhao Dai Wei goes I stand by my credentials and experience in its creation. I did not want it to be rigid, I sought flexability in it's application. Some people get very uptight with Martial Artist's that develop a new system. With the greatest respect intended, I attribute this to immaturity or lack of knowledge of the history of Martial Arts as a whole. Jigoro Kano, after only a few years in Ju jitsu developed Judo at the age of 22. And he did a fine job of it! But are you going to tell me that just because he is Asian he is entitled to create a system at 22 years of age and a few years of martial arts experience, but I cannot after 30 years, 2o of which was with practical hands on experience [military/LEO]with real bad guys who committed real violent felonies and wanted very much to seriously hurt me? Again, with respect, I don't buy into that.
Hwang Kee at age 31 [younger than me], combined Soo Bahk Do and Chinese T'ang to develop Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. Kang Uk Lee was a 6th Dan at 29 and a 9th Dan by 40. Hmmmm, we simple Americans should refrain from creating something new and wait 10 years between Dan ranks but our Asian predecessors didn't have to. And again, Bruce Lee himself never earned a Black Belt [to the best of my knowledge] yet founded Jeet Kune Do before 30. I say this not to their shame but to their CREDIT. These men were leaders to be respected. But they don't have the market cornered. We Americans have a tradition of resourcefulness and creativity as well.
Are there American instructors who are greedy and not legite? Oh YES there are!! But lets be honest, is it not the same in the Orient? Or is it standard to charge an American $6000 to go to the next Dan as I know of an incident? Isolated incidents to be sure, but there are bad apples in every bunch. The majority are honest, and legite, but not all. Do not Americans [and Brazil and Canada and Britain etc]Have their own highly respected people? Of course we do.
I had obtained other belts in more traditional styles going back quite a ways. I began developing this system somewhere back in the 80's albeit nothing in concrete. More of a mental mapping process of the direction I was thinking of taking. In the early 90's I began to flesh out the bare bones of what I was trying to accomplish. I was lacking in certain skills that I felt needed to be included in this system. So I began focusing my energies in that direction. I "officially" began teaching this system albeit still in its infancy around 1995. At this time I did not even worry about rank systems or any other non-vital data. My focus was its development. I kept my previously attained Dan ranking. An accident disabled my wife and I had to stop teaching for a period to care for her. But in my spare time I kept my personal training going and continued to update my methods.
I could have gone the route of "start a style/wave a wand/become a 25th degree black belt" Many do. However, I thought it prudent to seek out not just my peers, but my betters and say, "hey this is where I've come from and this is where I'm trying to go...help me achieve this goal". I've been blessed to fellowship with some fine instructors who are just down right decent human beings. And weren't out to make a buck at my expense. I took counsel [and still do]. I began to get recognition for my system at a Dan ranking in line with my years of experience and previous achievements. I have worked my way up to where I am now over time.
When I began I was unconcerned with titles, and I still am. I don't use them except on correspondence; no one calls me by anything other than David or coach by my instruction. I have my old plain Black Belt from years ago. No strips or gadgets or symbols, just plain. My system is ittsy bitsy in a large world, but after all has been said and done I am fairly happy with where I am at because I want this to be a part of what I pass down to my son.
Have I "arrived'? No of course not, and I never will. Zhao Dai Wei will continue to develop and improve as I do. But know that others have honored me to a position they feel that I am ready for and deserve I can kind of forget about the whole rank issue and concentrate on just training and getting better. The ultimate reason is the ability to go home safe at night to my wife and son.
Soke originally meant teacher, now it has come to mean founder. I have 'founded' this system and received recognition from highly respected Grandmasters in some very old organizations. If some wish to take issue with this that is their perogative, but it is perhaps simply pre-determined predjudice from a distance. Comments made out of generality without first hand knowledge of an individual, his accomplishments, goals, experience etc.
Zhao Dai Wei is Chinese because a Chinese based systems were amoung my first exposure to the Arts and they are near and dear to my heart. However, the system also has Okinawan/Japanese, Israeli and to a small extent Korean elements. As I prefer the Traditional Japanese belt system to the Chinese I have gone that route. To the best of my knoweldge this does not violate some supposed rule. All styles/systems were forged with the influence of its origninator, I have done no less.
Shuri-Te is an Okinawan karate style despite comments to the contrary. It is closely inter-related with styles like Shuri ryu etc.
I am not familar with Soke Castro....
My Ph.D. is in Philosophy.
In short [too late] my 'titles' have been given to me by my betters. They have chosen to honor me in this fashion which is their perogative due to their individual experiences and contributions to the arts. Since I have earned it in their eyes I use it on corrospondence and my site. If this is still a problem for some then so be it. You cannot always please everyone nor should you try. You should follow your own course and not put to high a credence on those who perhaps have a different agenda or perhaps a bad experience in some regard.
For those that welcome me, my humble and happy thanks. I look forward to courteous and informative discussion with you. I am always ready to learn or improve. To anyone else I simply bid you peace and happiness. Stay safe all.
Yiliquan1,
I would perhaps respectfully suggest you reread my post, with objectivity. No disrespect was offered or mentioned to traditional systems or styles. The comment was on the 'sport' version of these systems. I work in a Maximum security Correctional Facility with felon to death row inmates. Sport karate i.e styles that teach point-sparring techniques and fancy, complicated techniques will get you seriously injured in these types of environments. Perhaps you disagree with this as is your right.
However I will offer two quick points for consideration. First, I have had over 200 uses-of-force against violent felons. I don't say this in a proud way, quite the contrary, with the amount of years I have had on the job these were incidents in which all of my non-force options were taken away BY the felon
Does this mean I'm special or invincible. No... it does not! I have not reinvented the wheel I have merely added a spoke. Which is the same thing a myriad of Martial Artists have done before me. I have lent my hand into it with the experiences that I have garnered in my life time. Between the military and LEO I have two decades of realworld hand-to-hand combat experience which I have needed to live to type this post today. Not dojo sparring, not refereed tournements but real life against real BG's. This concept may offend some here but so be it. I am not impressed with a 250 lbs UFC fighter that competes [not taking away from his talent,skill or heart] but I am impressed with the 120 lbs housewife that successfully defeats a would be rapist or the 170lbs Deputy that defeats an inmate attempting to shank him in the throat. This is MY venue...my arena.
My training in Pangai-noon, Shuri-Te, Judo, Ju Jitsu [small circle], Krav Maga and Chin Na has lend to my experience as have the LEO-only training courses that I have attended. My hope is that this clarifies what I consider 'sport' versions of karate. They are great for many people in many areanas. They inspire discipline and focus. They increase vitality and alertness. But they will not prepare an individual for what awaits behind the concrete walls of our correctional system or the concrete of the inner-city streets. With all due respect I will debate this with anyone that takes issue with it. There is a place for an aerial spinning back kick...in the ring, not in a 5 x 8 cell or balcony.
Numbered Dan titles differ from style to style in different parts of the world. Shichidan may not mean 7th Dan to you, but it does to many others.
As far as Dan rankings go, I think people worry about them too much in general. I cannot speak for all styles and systems but in general [the ones I am familiar with]there is essentially no new information learned after Shodan. Perhaps additional kata, but for the most part it is time in grade and teaching experience. Some systems have a long time in between grades and some not quite so long. It seems that the industry norm seems to be [in general] your current Dan in years to advance to the next higher. For example a 2nd to 3rd would be 2 years. Again this is a generality but I have seen many of the oldest organizations go by this guideline.
But it is ALL-subjective. Not just in this country but in the Orient perhaps more so. It is a sad fact that in certain styles if you are of Asian heritage you can buy a Dan, sometimes a very high Dan. And also if you are non-Asian you will pay thru the nose for a legitimate long over due advancement. I do not say this of the industry as a whole, but it has and does happen in both the West as well as the East. I don't buy into the mystical notion that the Orient has some monopoly or advantage over the rest of the world when it comes to Martial Arts. Many instructors in more traditional systems simply can't afford to advance to the next Dan. Some styles require you to fly over to the home country and test. That is just not always feasible.
Grandmaster Dunn by the way founded the USADR long before we met. As a retired LEO he has much pratical experience and we now cross-train with several other individuals. He has honored me with formal recognition within his organization and later asked we to sit on the board. In turn I have recognized him within my system with a rank that had already been achieved in more traditional styles. I have similarly recognized several individuals with their previous experience and simply cross-ranked them. Zhao Dai Wei is NOT a traditional system in which a participant MUST learn MY way. It is tailor made to each student with emphasis on what works best for them. As an instructor it does not matter what I can do...only what I can teach YOU to do. If a Black Belt comes to me for training I recognize him as a Black Belt. I don't play the game of 'well I didn't promote you so I won't recognize you'. I don't deal well with politics...in fact I absolutely will not play those games. I have a good friend who is a Nidan in Uechi-ryu. He wishes to train with me for the grappling/ground fighting applications as he is also a fellow Deputy. I not only allow but encourage him to wear his Black Belt, because he has earned it. If he choses to stay with me for continued training I will recognize him at that level [given consistant training and application] within my system.
As far as the system of Zhao Dai Wei goes I stand by my credentials and experience in its creation. I did not want it to be rigid, I sought flexability in it's application. Some people get very uptight with Martial Artist's that develop a new system. With the greatest respect intended, I attribute this to immaturity or lack of knowledge of the history of Martial Arts as a whole. Jigoro Kano, after only a few years in Ju jitsu developed Judo at the age of 22. And he did a fine job of it! But are you going to tell me that just because he is Asian he is entitled to create a system at 22 years of age and a few years of martial arts experience, but I cannot after 30 years, 2o of which was with practical hands on experience [military/LEO]with real bad guys who committed real violent felonies and wanted very much to seriously hurt me? Again, with respect, I don't buy into that.
Hwang Kee at age 31 [younger than me], combined Soo Bahk Do and Chinese T'ang to develop Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. Kang Uk Lee was a 6th Dan at 29 and a 9th Dan by 40. Hmmmm, we simple Americans should refrain from creating something new and wait 10 years between Dan ranks but our Asian predecessors didn't have to. And again, Bruce Lee himself never earned a Black Belt [to the best of my knowledge] yet founded Jeet Kune Do before 30. I say this not to their shame but to their CREDIT. These men were leaders to be respected. But they don't have the market cornered. We Americans have a tradition of resourcefulness and creativity as well.
Are there American instructors who are greedy and not legite? Oh YES there are!! But lets be honest, is it not the same in the Orient? Or is it standard to charge an American $6000 to go to the next Dan as I know of an incident? Isolated incidents to be sure, but there are bad apples in every bunch. The majority are honest, and legite, but not all. Do not Americans [and Brazil and Canada and Britain etc]Have their own highly respected people? Of course we do.
I had obtained other belts in more traditional styles going back quite a ways. I began developing this system somewhere back in the 80's albeit nothing in concrete. More of a mental mapping process of the direction I was thinking of taking. In the early 90's I began to flesh out the bare bones of what I was trying to accomplish. I was lacking in certain skills that I felt needed to be included in this system. So I began focusing my energies in that direction. I "officially" began teaching this system albeit still in its infancy around 1995. At this time I did not even worry about rank systems or any other non-vital data. My focus was its development. I kept my previously attained Dan ranking. An accident disabled my wife and I had to stop teaching for a period to care for her. But in my spare time I kept my personal training going and continued to update my methods.
I could have gone the route of "start a style/wave a wand/become a 25th degree black belt" Many do. However, I thought it prudent to seek out not just my peers, but my betters and say, "hey this is where I've come from and this is where I'm trying to go...help me achieve this goal". I've been blessed to fellowship with some fine instructors who are just down right decent human beings. And weren't out to make a buck at my expense. I took counsel [and still do]. I began to get recognition for my system at a Dan ranking in line with my years of experience and previous achievements. I have worked my way up to where I am now over time.
When I began I was unconcerned with titles, and I still am. I don't use them except on correspondence; no one calls me by anything other than David or coach by my instruction. I have my old plain Black Belt from years ago. No strips or gadgets or symbols, just plain. My system is ittsy bitsy in a large world, but after all has been said and done I am fairly happy with where I am at because I want this to be a part of what I pass down to my son.
Have I "arrived'? No of course not, and I never will. Zhao Dai Wei will continue to develop and improve as I do. But know that others have honored me to a position they feel that I am ready for and deserve I can kind of forget about the whole rank issue and concentrate on just training and getting better. The ultimate reason is the ability to go home safe at night to my wife and son.
Soke originally meant teacher, now it has come to mean founder. I have 'founded' this system and received recognition from highly respected Grandmasters in some very old organizations. If some wish to take issue with this that is their perogative, but it is perhaps simply pre-determined predjudice from a distance. Comments made out of generality without first hand knowledge of an individual, his accomplishments, goals, experience etc.
Zhao Dai Wei is Chinese because a Chinese based systems were amoung my first exposure to the Arts and they are near and dear to my heart. However, the system also has Okinawan/Japanese, Israeli and to a small extent Korean elements. As I prefer the Traditional Japanese belt system to the Chinese I have gone that route. To the best of my knoweldge this does not violate some supposed rule. All styles/systems were forged with the influence of its origninator, I have done no less.
Shuri-Te is an Okinawan karate style despite comments to the contrary. It is closely inter-related with styles like Shuri ryu etc.
I am not familar with Soke Castro....
My Ph.D. is in Philosophy.
In short [too late
] my 'titles' have been given to me by my betters. They have chosen to honor me in this fashion which is their perogative due to their individual experiences and contributions to the arts. Since I have earned it in their eyes I use it on corrospondence and my site. If this is still a problem for some then so be it. You cannot always please everyone nor should you try. You should follow your own course and not put to high a credence on those who perhaps have a different agenda or perhaps a bad experience in some regard. For those that welcome me, my humble and happy thanks. I look forward to courteous and informative discussion with you. I am always ready to learn or improve. To anyone else I simply bid you peace and happiness. Stay safe all.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #36
Funny how no such style exists in Okinawa
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #37
read the historically documented definition of the word soke again.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #38
What do ya say guys.................shall we all get together and start giving each other Soke-ships and 10 th dans?
We can start our own bogus organizations so we can "official recognize" each other as a "true" Soke-doke.
It seems to be the thing to do these days.
People like that are f*****g joke and a disgrace to people that train seriously.
We can start our own bogus organizations so we can "official recognize" each other as a "true" Soke-doke.
It seems to be the thing to do these days.
People like that are f*****g joke and a disgrace to people that train seriously.
OP
A.R.K.
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
Funny how no such style exists in Okinawa
Shuri is indigenous to Okinawa. And has quite a following not only in this country but abroad. A very good friend of mine from the academy has his Yodan in Shuri Te and his instructor has just accepted his Hachidan in the same.
I started off with the perception that perhaps you merely had some bad experiences and were transfering them to the new guy. I see as you have progressed that you are merely trolling. If this is the case we can simply agree to disagree but I will stand by my credentials...they were earned with blood, sweat and tears. You casting dispersions from behind your monitor towards someone you don't know speaks to your character.
If you would like to start your own organization feel free. I have founded two, the first benefits children's charities and the other unites Masters from around the world in fellowship [and is free]. I can see where you would have a problem with this. How dare I help children by uniting fellow artists. How dare I unite Artist's worldwide for fellowship and networking for free. I can see why your making all of your smart aleck remarks.
I'm also a member of the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association. I guess thats not legite either in your esteemed eyes. I guess folks such as Jack 'Pappasan' Stern and Joe Hess are fakes as well...I mean the KYHA is only one of the oldest, largest and most prestigeous organizations with strong ties to the East in the country.
Yes, lets lump in the USADR as well. How dare they buck the system by cutting through the politics and greed and concentrate merely on helping an Artist achieve something he/she has earned but been prevented from recieving. BTW, as a non-paid board member I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of current members did not pay one penny. It was given them free BECAUSE this organization rebels against the politic game. How dare they buck the system of predjudice, greed, racial profiling and discrimination. Yes, I see your problem there as well.
If you wish to get bent out of shape at the term Soke, then so be it. Your long article is an opinion, if you wish to subscribe to it that is your right. Don't force it on others. I never once deemed myself with any of the titles I now have. They have been awarded to me by my betters...and YOUR betters. They felt I deserved such recognition, I accepted. As for $$$...lets see. I charge $40 per month for unlimited classes to the students that can afford it. To the others I give them a free ride. As I am employed by the Grace of God full time, I teach because I love to, not because it is my bread and butter. I make perhaps $150 a month on a good month as I basically teach for free. Those that can contribute pay for an occasional piece of equipment.
Your problem is with the self appointed Mcdojo grandmasters, not me. If you chose to continue making your jaded comments to me and about me then we simply don't need to converse. I am here to fellowship with those of a similar interest and hopefully expand my borders. I don't feel currently that I could learn anything from you except negativity and arrognant antagonism. I do bid you peace and health.
Shuri is indigenous to Okinawa. And has quite a following not only in this country but abroad. A very good friend of mine from the academy has his Yodan in Shuri Te and his instructor has just accepted his Hachidan in the same.
I started off with the perception that perhaps you merely had some bad experiences and were transfering them to the new guy. I see as you have progressed that you are merely trolling. If this is the case we can simply agree to disagree but I will stand by my credentials...they were earned with blood, sweat and tears. You casting dispersions from behind your monitor towards someone you don't know speaks to your character.
If you would like to start your own organization feel free. I have founded two, the first benefits children's charities and the other unites Masters from around the world in fellowship [and is free]. I can see where you would have a problem with this. How dare I help children by uniting fellow artists. How dare I unite Artist's worldwide for fellowship and networking for free. I can see why your making all of your smart aleck remarks.
I'm also a member of the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association. I guess thats not legite either in your esteemed eyes. I guess folks such as Jack 'Pappasan' Stern and Joe Hess are fakes as well...I mean the KYHA is only one of the oldest, largest and most prestigeous organizations with strong ties to the East in the country.
Yes, lets lump in the USADR as well. How dare they buck the system by cutting through the politics and greed and concentrate merely on helping an Artist achieve something he/she has earned but been prevented from recieving. BTW, as a non-paid board member I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of current members did not pay one penny. It was given them free BECAUSE this organization rebels against the politic game. How dare they buck the system of predjudice, greed, racial profiling and discrimination. Yes, I see your problem there as well.
If you wish to get bent out of shape at the term Soke, then so be it. Your long article is an opinion, if you wish to subscribe to it that is your right. Don't force it on others. I never once deemed myself with any of the titles I now have. They have been awarded to me by my betters...and YOUR betters. They felt I deserved such recognition, I accepted. As for $$$...lets see. I charge $40 per month for unlimited classes to the students that can afford it. To the others I give them a free ride. As I am employed by the Grace of God full time, I teach because I love to, not because it is my bread and butter. I make perhaps $150 a month on a good month as I basically teach for free. Those that can contribute pay for an occasional piece of equipment.
Your problem is with the self appointed Mcdojo grandmasters, not me. If you chose to continue making your jaded comments to me and about me then we simply don't need to converse. I am here to fellowship with those of a similar interest and hopefully expand my borders. I don't feel currently that I could learn anything from you except negativity and arrognant antagonism. I do bid you peace and health.
I'm going to add a few cents worth here....
This is aimed in general, and not at anyone specifically right now....
I repeat, MartialTalk welcomes the 'Friendly' debate...to this end:
1 - Debate the point, but leave the insults out of it. If you can't handle debating in a mature manner without resorting to inuendos, veiled insults, or the like, then please leave.
2 - Given the large number of arts out there, the fact stands that certain terms may be used in ways that are different than the original intent.
Given that several clarifications were asked, and they were supplied, I see 2 current points of contention:
A - RyuShiKan disagrees with Zhao Dai Wei's definition of 'SOKE'
(this word does not appear in any of my 3 Jap-Eng dictionaries, BTW)
B - RyuShiKan disagrees with Zhao Dai Wei's comment that "Shuri-Te is an Okinawan karate style". I do remember some discussion about this here recently.
I'll ask both groups to provide reference to both disputed facts.
On "Soke":
'Soke' also does appear to have English roots:
"Shuri-Te Discussions"
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2323&highlight=ShuriTe
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3721&highlight=ShuriTe
:asian:
This is aimed in general, and not at anyone specifically right now....
I repeat, MartialTalk welcomes the 'Friendly' debate...to this end:
1 - Debate the point, but leave the insults out of it. If you can't handle debating in a mature manner without resorting to inuendos, veiled insults, or the like, then please leave.
2 - Given the large number of arts out there, the fact stands that certain terms may be used in ways that are different than the original intent.
Given that several clarifications were asked, and they were supplied, I see 2 current points of contention:
A - RyuShiKan disagrees with Zhao Dai Wei's definition of 'SOKE'
(this word does not appear in any of my 3 Jap-Eng dictionaries, BTW)
B - RyuShiKan disagrees with Zhao Dai Wei's comment that "Shuri-Te is an Okinawan karate style". I do remember some discussion about this here recently.
I'll ask both groups to provide reference to both disputed facts.
On "Soke":
http://www.tejitsu.com/soke.htm
'Soke' also does appear to have English roots:
http://www.btinternet.com/~simonmarchini/glossery.htm#Soke and Sokeland
"Shuri-Te Discussions"
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2323&highlight=ShuriTe
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3721&highlight=ShuriTe
:asian:
- Status
