8th Degree BB Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by phatbway, Feb 26, 2009.

  1. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    My teacher was among the finest I have ever witnessed in the Bujinkan.
    I didn't have great chemistry with the guy but he is a damn sight better than the multiple dojo I have visited and what I saw in Japan.

    What the hell would you have to say about him, now that I have PM you and you know who he is.
     
  2. phatbway

    phatbway Yellow Belt

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    Thanks to ALL for your responses. I was not about to believe this kid, but since I know nothing about the Ninjutsu system and how often they test and how long it takes to be a BB, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. WOW! The things kids do for attention.

    Amazing!
     
  3. newtothe dark

    newtothe dark Purple Belt

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    Maybe he trained at the same school as ralph hall??????/:dalek:
     
  4. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Your teacher is better than the instructors in Japan? :rofl:
     
  5. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    You know you have a certain way of twisting answers, good that you are a mod.
    I didn't say that. What I said was he was lot better than what I had seen in Japan. That includes foreigners.
    With that being said as I stated my opinion, you never stated what you knew of him or why you hold that opinion. He didn't do much in the states so I fail to see how you'd know that much of him.
    What you are coming back with is vailed insults instead of just a reasonable answer.

    I'm sorry I chimed in with a thought.
     
  6. runnerninja

    runnerninja Yellow Belt

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    OK before I get slated here I do acknowledge that I do not know any high ranking black belts who are in their teens and I am unlikely to come across any from what I have seen from peoples training.
    However I do not believe that a student should be prevented from receiving grades based on age. I understand that in order to reach higher level grades there will be a certain level of understanding or maturity required.
    At present regular training students seem to train about 3 times a week. In theory if they started at ten and trained consistently when wcould they expect to achieve a balck belt? 3-5 years?
    What if they trained every day(I dont know anybody who does this, but in theory)? Could they not reach a higher grade in the same space of time?
    What about people like Takamatsu? Had he not received menkyo kaiden in at least one ruy by the time he was 19?
    As I have said I dont personally know anybody who I could use as an example but if a student has the right teacher and attitude to apply himself/herself to learning the are could they not achieve a high grade in their teens?
     
  7. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    You mean as opposed to your veiled shots at the Bujinkan virtually every time you post? :rolleyes:
    You said (emphasis mine):
    Since you specified in Japan, that to me says that you think the Japanese are somehow lacking compared to your instructor.
    Are we talking about your instructor here or this whiz kid godan? I thought the godan trained under a fringe group like Willson's Collective---er, Brotherhood, or Divantman.
     
  8. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    Touche. I'll conceed that. I'm trying slowly to get beyond trading barbs

    No, my old instructor had nothing to do with Wilsons group at all. And we are speaking of my instructor whom I mentioned in my PM to you. However my instructor did teach Divantman Sensei, who was a brown belt when I left that particular dojo.
    I do not know that this whiz kid is anything now. I just remember him having alot of talent as a youth. But if my former teacher says he's good I am apt to believe him. I gather he passed the test and Hatsumi Sensei's mark so that is good enough for most.

    I was being defensive of my teacher, not said whiz kid. I was using that as a point.

    That being said, I don't know all of the indies. The ones I do know and would train with don't have that age group with hachidans. I have no issue with a teen as a Shodan myself if they have that level of skill. I would think that a hachidan would just look a little silly, at 16 at least.

    I think alot of orgs, myself included tend to be a little generous to inspire folks. I've certainly had that failing in my past.

    It was not meant as a slam to the Bujinkan more as a point of statement.
     
  9. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Keep in mind that the Bujinkan is big enough that it is impossible for Hatsumi sensei to know much about every yondan taking the test. He assumes that they were recommended in good faith.
     
  10. MMcGuirk

    MMcGuirk Yellow Belt

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    The last time a teenager (17 years old)sat for the Godan test at a TaiKai that I know of was asked from Soke:
    "who is your teacher?" <student answered>

    He was then hit so hard with a shinai the tip actually hit him in the face from the force of the strike!! (there are multiple witnesses to this)

    "that's for your teacher"

    It's really funny to me because I was dojo mates with the teacher!
     
  11. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    Very true Jeff.
    However the student/Shidoshi does exist. So it does happen, which is what it is.

    Now as for Hatsumi doing that little lesson, this student should of had nothing to suffer for the actions of his teacher if that was the lesson to be had.
    Hatsumi should have rejected the notion of him sitting for the test in the 1st place. But to let him sit and belt away to teach his teacher a lesson, I'd have him brought up on charges. I would have no problem teaching a "lesson" to the teacher for being wrong in promoting so fast. This does nothing but to serve as a show. Imagine being 17, led to believe you were ready, pay to go to Japan all full of passion to learn to be shown up. Disgusting.
    Maybe some Daito Ryu or another school there, would it be wrong then for them to teach a "lesson" in the dojo physically for the misalignment of quality assurance of the arts in Japan in their opinion?
    I watched 7 Sakki test when I was in Japan, 1 of which I would have passed. Maybe they all should have been whacked to impress a point upon their teachers.

    Well I hope the teeen got smart and left the organization.

    I respect mat "lessons" but thats abusive if it is at all true.
     
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  12. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    What charges, specifically, after you voluntarily sat for a test knowing that failure meant getting whacked with a shinai? :idunno:

    What?

    Since you're obviously much more qualified (at least in your own opinion), why didn't you point out to Hatsumi sensei that you would not have passed those people?
     
  13. MMcGuirk

    MMcGuirk Yellow Belt

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    In all honesty Bujingodai, why do you care what happens in the Bujinkan then? You admit you don't belong to it and don't care for how the way things are run. This is not a flame question or attack but an honest question.

    Getting whacked with a shinai is a bit better than going around thinking you are skilled and then getting killed in a real fight.

    Since I knew the people involved, the kid actually made an attempt to clean up his act and get back in touch with reality. In fact, Hatsumi sensei contacted a local teacher and asked him to retrain the kid the proper way. His test took place in the U.S. and not Japan so no great fortune was spent traveling overseas.

    If this was the worst thing that ever happened to him in training he's very fortunate. ( I haven't seen him in years, so don't know if he trains at all anymore) I've broken a knuckle, dislocated joints and been hit on the head of my pride and joy with a bo staff and had the usual "where did that bruise come from?". This is a martial art, pain is normal. As I say though, pain and injury are two different things. The kid walked away with a hurt pride and ego.

    My friend (his teacher) on the other hand was embarrassed to all hell and took a hard look at his own promotion standards and no I don't raz him about it.

    As for charges: say we were training and I'm to punch you in the face and wind up hitting you. would you bring me up on charges? Do you think the local police would look at this and think "why are you wasting my time, Isn't this supposed to be a martial arts dojo?"

    Sorry that may come off as snippy as I write this but it's not. I tell people who hit me not to worry about it because it's my fault I got hit. I knew the punch was coming and I'm a big boy all grown up.

    It's kind of like when I was a grunt in the army and people worried about going to war? WTF!!??

    "disgusting" come on, that's a cheap shot and an organization you have issues with. If you don't like it then why do you pay attention? Honestly, I don't like a certain "martial" art and the chains of dojo's they open around where I live, but I sure don't hang around them telling how much they are doing things they way I see them or getting angry over it.

    oh yeah, when the person in question trained with us he always had a smile on his face and got on great with everyone, so go figure.
     
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  14. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    Jeff you had to be recommended to sit for that test do you not? If not then I am wrong and I conceed then the person in question may have to bear some of that brunt. If not a poor one.

    Never mind about the lesson thing. My point is lost even within myself I am not sure why I wrote it.
    As for the being more qualified. I never said that. But be real you've seen a bunch of them yourself. Do you honestly feel that they merited the true pass? Thats only my opinion personally, and I said that. I would have only passed the certain ones. We are entitled to that.

    Jeff no matter what I say you are going to throw a spin on it. So I gather the mods position here to to tow a certain line instead of allowing opinions. I am not being rude about it.

    BTW the invitation to have you come to an indie seminar expenses in paid by me, is still open. I know the last time you had to back out. We'd love to have you. I for one would love to see you teach and learn something from it.

    MMguirk. You are very right. It should not bother me what happens in the Kan. The point was being made about a grade level and I was stating it happens in the "legit" systems as well. I don't care but I have been the subject of online witchhunts in the past as have fellow schools so it bears to reason that I might have an opinion that would bother me.
    But again it is not my concern. So correctly I will let it go as soon as it is done here

    As for training and being punched in the face, no I wouldn't charge you. My teacher has broken my ribs I never charged him.
    However lets say your son goes to my school, and I teach him a lesson by whacking him that hard. That would be Ok with you.

    Maybe just a perception. It was mine.
    Done deal, glad the lesson was learned. My opinion stands, I am sorry it doesn't mesh with yours. I appreciate your opinion on the matter.
     
  15. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    You have to be recommended, yes.

    It's not my call. Now if I end up training with that person, knowing they're a godan (or higher), I'm not going to take it easy on them like I might with a lower ranked student. The last time I was in Japan I got an interesting collection of bruises from Hatsumi sensei and the shihan, because I really tried to hit/throw them when I got tapped as uke.

    My opinion on a topic in no way makes that the official position of the staff here. I'm not putting a spin on anything, I'm responding to your comments. If you think I'm being rude in my replies to you, you can report me just like any other member. In the past we've had mods warned, suspended, even banned for violating the rules.

    I haven't had time for my own training lately, let alone anything else. And when I do get back into it, I'm going to be spending quite a while wearing my student hat before I do any more teaching.
     
  16. MMcGuirk

    MMcGuirk Yellow Belt

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    First off thank you for answering the question in the manner it was asked.

    I'm not following the "legit" and witch hunt thing so I'm not going to appreciate your feelings on the matter. I'm not you obviously. However, it sounds like you are taking past transgressions from other people and projecting onto people you don't know.

    May I ask what BujinGodai (dojo)is? To me it is an english compound of Bujin and the Godai. Divine warrior and 5 elements. Now, if your answer is you are teaching Ninjutsu then I can imagine the people hounding you and what not.

    I know you mentioned you were once a member of Bujinkan but have since left. If you are still claiming to teach Ninjutsu then I'm sure there are people harrassing you. Right or wrong it's not my business but I think I get why you get pissed.

    Now, theoretically if I had a son training under you and you whacked him hard to teach him a lesson would I get mad at you?
    Depends:
    Did my son do something stupid? In this case I would whack him after you! Yes, in all honesty. This is why I've never been in trouble with law and pay my taxes! I wouldn't injure him though.

    Did you whack him just because you could and get a sense manhood from it? I would beat the snot out of you. Or you'd beat the snot of me. In any case our relationship would be over anyway.

    One of the things you mentioned about not liking Japan training is the lack of attention to protocol. Well, harsh training is sometimes necessary. Please do not associate this with vindictive and cruel.

    Last time I saw a Japanese senior teach a Japanese junior sword kamae, the poor new guy was getting whacked about the ears and head because his kamae was poor. Did he get mad? No. Did he try harder to fix his kamae? Yes. It was a long night for him while the rest of us went on training other principles.

    In the U.S., in all probability the guy would have quit and claimed the dojo is full of jerks who don't know what they are doing.

    What we in the west see as cruel or mean(sorry for the cliche) is a form of kindness. Now you can disagree or agree with it that's fine. Your opinion on the matter won't change what I do either.
    No worries, it's been a slow work day.
     
  17. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    Fair enough, sure I can see why the independent Ninjutsu schools are definatly hounded. So there is the witchhunt thing. Yes what I teach I call it that, though like a bunch I don't claim attachment or some history to Japan. I'm not going into the story why it ended up this way I can assure you it was not the original intention, it just did.

    As for being a part of the Kan Iwas for a number of years, and also came back. I was very disappointed with what I saw in Japan and upon my return I Left. I do not claim teaching rank in the Kan, I have a Sandan, thats it. So hence can not teach it. Nor do I award rank in it.

    OK again perception of the discipline. I agree with the Japanese method of discipline. I guess I was more ired by the context. I have been the subject of it, witnessed it in other schools as well. My perception of that situation, which I have admitted to being wrong.
    I guess somethings are not meant to be compared

    Your correct about the name that was the intention, it's grammtically incorrect as you have stated, but it's been 10 years and it will stay that way.

    Anyway I am not here trying to stir crap as some may think I am trying to discuss something of my opinion thats all.

    Personally I have no problem at all saying alot of the indies are whackjobs, I have at least met with and trained with the ones I have opinions of.

    However you know the same is said of the Bujinkan.

    You speak of Japanese methods and such, which is fine. It seems I am confused about it.
    Now what of the Bujinkans lack of reigi saho, would that not be against Japanese protocal as well.

    Just for a point of discussion.
     
  18. kaizasosei

    kaizasosei Master Black Belt

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    When i was a kid i became a 12$ black belt so that i could enter competitions. However, i didn't exploit the belt system for the purposes of bragging and inflating things. Might be good to just roll with it and humour him. Highly unlikely a 16 can be a decent high degree without some serious backup. Why don't you simply ask for a something like a demonstration of basic skills? I for one would be interested in seeing some of that...chances are it's laughable, but if he is truly inspired, who knows, kid may be good.
    What makes him want to give up his extraordinary rank to practice another art? Not that it's a bad thing, but in my book, unless you have really formal papers and testing from seniors, what's the point of telling tales?- be they true or not.

    Ninjutsu is known for being devious and using many destructive techniques but making those techniques and strategies work takes as much maturity and experience as in an other martial art if not more because you may be taking a simple fight to another level. On the field, lame tricks are generaly easily overpowered by true martial strength and the bearer of destructive techniques is only digging himself a deep grave. Sounds like not only a lonely world, but a very fearful one. The only thing that really speaks for him is the fact that he is making an effort to hook up with real communities showing braveness in that sense. Big question is, how willing is he to learn and even to conform??

    j





    j
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  19. MMcGuirk

    MMcGuirk Yellow Belt

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    BujinGodai,

    I really don't care what people who don't train in Bujinkan think about us. I've used it in real life for defense and over time the training has also taught me how to move through life and live happier. It still amazes me when people who have spent only a little time or none at all except for watching youtube videos are more expert than those who have spent years learning in the group.

    I'm also amazed at those claiming to teach Ninjutsu and not having ANY ties to Japan or lineage. Why do people feel the need to add ninjutsu to their school name?

    if you are a skilled martial artist who's invented their own style then use an english or whatever native language to name it. adding ninjutsu to it doesn't make it so. besides physical techniques there is a philosophy and delivery method that is unique. how can it be learned half a world away?

    "indie?" independent of what? not meant as a jab but a real question. if these groups would just drop the word ninjutsu no one would care. although your not going to pleasee everyone.

    My mother has an octagenarian friend who thinks I'm secret Japanese police because I travel to Japan to train in Ninjutsu. (she's native japanese btw) No, I tell her I train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I don't do any espionage or sneaky things.

    Just about every younger Japanese not practicing martial arts can't even read some of the kanji or understand the "old" Japanese being spoken. I tried at university to get a lot of translations and I would get the old "eeeeh? this is old Japanese, we cannot understand it. Can you understand old Enlish?" So how do foreigners who don't speak the language claim a connection?

    This is no different then the teenager claiming he is 8th dan. just because he says it doesn't make it so.

    As far as formal protocols of behavior in the dojo, I don't speak for the Bujinkan.

    Personally, I love the way it's done. I can train in a t-shirt because it's hot and humid or I can wear a sweatshirt because it's freezing. I don't have to bow 50 times a night I can just train. I've been around dojo in the U.S. that did this and I think it's a waste of training time.

    I've been to a seminar where the host complimented the outside group participating was well behaved because they went around yelling "yes sir!" they couldn't do what was being shown but that was besides the point. I'd rather try to ingrain what's being taught as opposed to behaving more japanese than the japanese.

    I think the bow before and after class suits me just fine. There is protocol, but as far as I see, there is a time and place for it. If the lack of protocol irritates you then as you said, you don't train in Bujinkan so you shouldn't let it bother you. Just my opinion.
     
  20. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    Well said and appreciated, thank you. You illustrate your points well. I can see your points.
     

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