2 new TKD forms from the Kukkiwon

[newGuy12]

Hello. I have stumbed across two new forms designed by the Kukkiwon. Here is a youtube video:

Now, I have also seen at least one of our members, who I respect, comment on these forms favourably on some other message board. (The board and the member will go unnamed). I myself think these forms are grand!

Thoughts?

 

[newGuy12]

Here is another video which shows judges discussing the form, if you are interested:

 

[exile]

nG, thanks very much for posting these.

I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of some of the long-time TKD teachers and experienced practitioners on the forms: why the look the way they do, what their payoffs are in terms of self-defense and so on.

 

[terryl965]

All I know in the second set of poomsae they had a spinning ridgehand and also a palm strike. I kinda like the ahnd strikes, this is more pacticle for SD reason.

The first form had too many high flying kicks for me but who knows. I will be looking for info. on who brought them to the front of the light and all of the SD pinciples that are involved in them.

 

[foot2face]

Are they supposed to have a direct, practical SD purpose?

I'm not a 100% certain, but I think I read some where that they were developed solely for form competitions as a metric to judge one's overall technical ability. It kind of makes sense after viewing them. They demonstrate a wide variety of techniques and do not seem as thematically focused as other poomse. It looks to me like they are a showcase for TKD.

 

[IcemanSK]

Wow, thanks for posting them, Robert. I'd really like to see boon hae on the first one. Any idea on what rank they are supposed to be targeted toward?

 

[newGuy12]

Wow, thanks for posting them, Robert.

Thank you and others for commenting on them. I am very anxious to learn any information at all about them, particularly from any Instructors or Assistant Instructors.

I'd really like to see boon hae on the first one. Any idea on what rank they are supposed to be targeted toward?

I cannot say much, because I do not know. I did read a post on the web by a man who can speak from a position of knowing. He said that they resemble the motions that are used in sparring, and seem to be technically motivated rather than politically motivated. That is all that I can pass along. Hopefully others will comment.

One other observation (nothing more) about the first one -- it takes quite a bit of room to execute. You cannot perform this in a small space.

The first form is very beautiful to me and pleasing to watch. I wish to try to learn this.

 

[exile]

All I know in the second set of poomsae they had a spinning ridgehand and also a palm strike. I kinda like the ahnd strikes, this is more pacticle for SD reason.

The first form had too many high flying kicks for me but who knows. I will be looking for info. on who brought them to the front of the light and all of the SD pinciples that are involved in them.

Are they supposed to have a direct, practical SD purpose?

I'm not a 100% certain, but I think I read some where that they were developed solely for form competitions as a metric to judge one's overall technical ability. It kind of makes sense after viewing them. They demonstrate a wide variety of techniques and do not seem as thematically focused as other poomse. It looks to me like they are a showcase for TKD.

Yes to the above, the bolded parts in particular.

If you look at both traditional O/J kata and the KMA derivatives of those kata (the hyungs sets which were formed largely out of recombined elements of the earlier O/J forms, with the Pinans especially prominent), you see a high proportion of hand techs to kicks—and, as Simon O'Neil and others have pointed out, this is also true for the `classic' TKD hyungs, both colored belt such as the Palgwes and the dan level hyung as well. Take Palgwe Pal Jang, the last of the series and part of the Shodan test at our dojang. 35 moves, 3 kicks. More than 90% of the hyung is hand strikes—a lotta elbow and knifehand strikes especially. Or take Tae Bak: 26 moves, 22 of them hand strikes. Or Sipjin: 31 moves, exactly 2, count 'em, two kicks in the whole form—and the most basic ones in the arsenal, plain old front snap kicks. These numbers are typical.

Compare them with the first of the new KKW hyungs, the one that f2f identifies as having been constructed as a showcase for contemporary TKD. I count 72 moves or so, of which 25 are kicks. That's one out of three moves, compared with Sipjin's one out of fifteen, or Palgwe Pal Jang's one out of eleven.

It's pretty clear what message is being sent. Those kinds of numbers don't reflect the kind of CQ techs that violence professionals trained in TMAs identify as the safest, most effective and reliable ones for real-world H2H combat, but they do reflect the overwhelming practice of current competition TKD—which, not coincidentally, the KKW has a big, big stake in, as the technical and curriculum arbiters of the national martial sport of the RoK (which has gotten immense favorable publicity and economic benefits from its place as the home of the Olympic sport that is, for much of the world, the whole story of TKD).

Am I being paranoid in seeing this synthetic hyung, designed as it is for forms competition and based on sparring competition, as the next wave in the KKW's campaign to completely rewrite TKD as a martial sport first and last, and decouple it altogether from its fighting origins in brutal street karate? Is it crazy to envisage that over the next decade or so, forms like Sipjin and the other classic TKD hyungs will be quietly marginalized in favor of nouveau cuisine forms, light on SD content but heavy on presentation, hitting all the right sparring-rules buttons, moving steadily in the direction of the XMA version of TKD performed by Chloe Bruce we saw a few weeks ago here? Can someone convince me, with good sound arguments, that that's not what we're getting a preview of here?

 

[Laurentkd]

nG, thanks very much for posting these.

I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of some of the long-time TKD teachers and experienced practitioners on the forms: why the look the way they do, what their payoffs are in terms of self-defense and so on.

As soon as I watched the video I knew this post from Exile was coming!

 

[Laurentkd]

Are they supposed to have a direct, practical SD purpose?

I'm not a 100% certain, but I think I read some where that they were developed solely for form competitions as a metric to judge one's overall technical ability. It kind of makes sense after viewing them. They demonstrate a wide variety of techniques and do not seem as thematically focused as other poomse. It looks to me like they are a showcase for TKD.

I heard awhile back that they were looking at creating new forms for competition's sake only. I just wish they would really standardize a couple of the current black belt forms and use those instead. These definitely look more like flash XMA type forms. I am reminded of open karate forms divisions- a lot of flash with very little "meat" (of course, they always get a huge response from the crowd). If these forms really do catch on I am sure I will learn them just to know them, but as Exile said, they really don't compare with the current forms we already have. Why fix what is not broken?

 

[exile]

As soon as I watched the video I knew this post from Exile was coming!

Ogod, a member for only a little more than a year and already that predictable?? Dang!.... :lol:

...they really don't compare with the current forms we already have. Why fix what is not broken?

It's a world-view thing, I'm guessing. They figure the time has come to make a decisive break with TKD's history and redefine it as a martial sport, pure and simple. Eventually, the art is going to split, the way it did when TSD broke away from what became the KTA. The Olympic stylists will go one way and we'll be on our own... which we sort of are already anyway, really....

 

[IcemanSK]

Ogod, a member for only a little more than a year and already that predictable?? Dang!.... :lol:



It's a world-view thing, I'm guessing. They figure the time has come to make a decisive break with TKD's history and redefine it as a martial sport, pure and simple. Eventually, the art is going to split, the way it did when TSD broke away from what became the KTA. The Olympic stylists will go one way and we'll be on our own... which we sort of are already anyway, really....[/quote]

What's that? Oh yeah, it's my gag reflex :barf:

 

[exile]

Ogod, a member for only a little more than a year and already that predictable?? Dang!.... :lol:



It's a world-view thing, I'm guessing. They figure the time has come to make a decisive break with TKD's history and redefine it as a martial sport, pure and simple. Eventually, the art is going to split, the way it did when TSD broke away from what became the KTA. The Olympic stylists will go one way and we'll be on our own... which we sort of are already anyway, really....

What's that? Oh yeah, it's my gag reflex :barf:

Well, you can't stop.... um... "progress".

Bizarre as it seems, there are folk who actually feel like that. Steve Capener is an excellent TKD historian, really good on what the pre-karate KMA scene in the 19th and early 20th c. was really like, but he would like nothing better than the complete elimination of all TKD links to actual combat. Check out his frequently cited paper here and you'll see exactly what I mean... for him, it's a cultural imperative that Korea rid itself of what he regards as the alien budo conception of personal-use MAs and instead go on to sportify itself totally. When I first read this last year I thought, no... surely no one actually takes that idea seriously... sport-type dilution, yes, but the combat art won't be rejected totally, right? But after looking at these vids and the Chloe Bruce `demo' ... hyung[??]... I gotta say that, yet again, I was wrong. Those vids are I think the Blue Wave of the future...

 

[crushing]

Isn't there a saying that goes something like, "You become what others see in you"? That's what I thought of when I saw this new form with its higher percentage of kicks including jumping kicks.

I did see some what looked like it may be wrist grab defenses with counter strikes/throws.

I thought the high side kick under 'tension' may have been more suited towards demonstrations, but upon a little further thought, do you really need to have SD aspects in every technique? What if certain techniques are to show a students commitment to balance, flexibility and concentration? Could those things be nearly as important in becoming a whole student?

 

[exile]

Isn't there a saying that goes something like, "You become what others see in you"? That's what I thought of when I saw this new form with its higher percentage of kicks including jumping kicks.

I did see some what looked like it may be wrist grab defenses with counter strikes/throws.

I thought the high side kick under 'tension' may have been more suited towards demonstrations, but upon a little further thought, do you really need to have SD aspects in every technique? What if certain techniques are to show a students commitment to balance, flexibility and concentration? Could those things be nearly as important in becoming a whole student?

Sure, but historically, the role of kata/hyungs/hsings has been as compressed mnemonics outlining how the general strategic principles of the art are expressed tactically in differing situations. I train balance very intensely—it declines with age probably faster than strength or even flexibility, so I cannot neglect it—but the best balance exercises I've found aren't hyungs or kata, but drills that specifically target the body-sense that corresponds to physical stability through a range of complex motions. Same for strength, for dexterity... kata weren't designed to `feed' those skills; their goal was to record the SD practice of the masters who created them. And so far as concentration is concerned... yes, definitely; but concentration and focus for what end? You can do forms in a kind of mesmerized, self-hypnotic state, of course, but to me that's not a form of focus that's very useful for MA purposes (though it can be an effective form of meditation—but then, so can a long, perfect ski run or a 5km run). Focus in MA training is surely related to visualization of the context in which the movements being trained will actually be applied, no? And that skill—being able to `see' your opposite number as you perform the kata and picture yourself actually applying the bunkai you've worked out—depends on your having a coherent idea of what the application consists of.

My concern is that TKD forms, under this new `regime', will be reduced to essentially hyung-like demo guidelines. The syntax will be the same, but the semantics will be radically different: there will be no organic functional coherence amongst the techs, which in the karate-based arts has always been imposed by considerations of combat utility and effectiveness—each subsequence of the form representing a highly economical use of motion to disable a violent antagonist. Once that's abandoned, the way is clear for TKD (of that stripe, anyway) to become first XMA-ized, and then eventually to wind up in the same relation to historical MA that modern state-sponsored wushu performances have to the old-time Fukien White Crane or Northern Mantis styles of CMA...

 

[Laurentkd]

Isn't there a saying that goes something like, "You become what others see in you"? That's what I thought of when I saw this new form with its higher percentage of kicks including jumping kicks.

I did see some what looked like it may be wrist grab defenses with counter strikes/throws.

I thought the high side kick under 'tension' may have been more suited towards demonstrations, but upon a little further thought, do you really need to have SD aspects in every technique? What if certain techniques are to show a students commitment to balance, flexibility and concentration? Could those things be nearly as important in becoming a whole student?

Sure, there are lots of important skills for a martial artist to have, but that doesn't mean they necessarily belong in forms. We don't see any running laps or jump rope in forms to show endurance. We don't do the splits in forms to show static flexibility. We don't kick targets or boards in forms to show accuracy. All these (and more) aspects are important to being a good martial artist, but traditionally that was not the purpose of forms. I guess it is just see the original reasoning behind them be thrown away to be more conducive to competition is what gets me.

**Edit: I should have read Exile's post first. He explains my above section much better than I!**

And I STILL don't understand why our current forms couldn't have been used in higher level competition. All WTF forms are supposed to be standardized and they are definitely not. Why not actually mandate a specific competition standard for current forms and then anyone choosing to compete must alter their forms to match this standard (any master who doesn't have his students compete can of course keep doing them the way he feels is best). I don't know. I guess as long as all TKD forms don't turn in to this new sport style it doesn't really matter if there are a couple of flash in the pan forms out there, but to me it just all seems like a slippery slope.

BEWARE THE SLIPPERY SLOPE!!!!!!
​

 

[terryl965]

As to the split that has happened and will continue. My take is simple, if you enjoy competing then complete. If you enjoy Tradition then find tradition, the problem is we have no tradition anymore every single Tom, Dick and Harry does there own thing. In the tKD world every single person has the hidden agenda and association, you rank me I'll rank you and so on and so on. We have lost what once was, to qoute a movie about Kig Authur. Never can it be found because to mant self rightous asses are in control of what once was. I have been doing TKD for half my life, seen it all fake certs., GM never sending certificates over to the Kukkiwon and people never recieving them. The raise of the all mighty McDojaangs and the power they can produce in a city of such naive people.

Training has become a joke, SD principle are being re-invented everyday, Yea right and I'm the pope of the Cathelic Church for God sake. Remember what once was is a phase of people like me old and tired of the politics and seeing new people get some powers and change everything, I will always be a 4th for I feel there is nobody worthy to test me again, all these test are a joke if you pay enough money you have a new rank if you play the game you have a new rank and if you kiss those asses enough you wil be a GM in no time.

Sorry things like this just upsets the living crap out of me and it will continue to do so. I am doomed to see what I love and have devoted my life to be destoyed by money hungry power tripping people that really do not give a damm about the Art or anybody that is evolved in the Arts.

 

[Laurentkd]

As to the split that has happened and will continue. My take is simple, if you enjoy competing then complete. If you enjoy Tradition then find tradition, the problem is we have no tradition anymore every single Tom, Dick and Harry does there own thing.

I do want to throw in here that I don't see anything wrong with competing. I myself competed nationally in the AAU back in the day and they are some of my best memories of growing up through middle and high school. I love the experiences those gave me. It is just the total flip to ALL competition that worries me, and I guess that is why I have become much more "traditionally minded" in the last few years because I feel like we have to hold on tight to what we have in order to keep it.

Sorry things like this just upsets the living crap out of me and it will continue to do so. I am doomed to see what I love and have devoted my life to be destoyed by money hungry power tripping people that really do not give a damm about the Art or anybody that is evolved in the Arts.

It is so great talking to like minded folks here on MT! Master Stoker, I hope you keep on keeping on, because there are others out there who share your feelings. The thing is, those of us who care about traditional ways are not the ones who are going to be trying to elbow their way into politics, so it almost seems there is no stopping the big organizational swing towards sport. I guess all we can do is keep training and teaching the way we feel we should, and maybe we'll influence enough people to get the pendulum to swing back the other way before too long.

 

[terryl965]

I do want to throw in here that I don't see anything wrong with competing. I myself competed nationally in the AAU back in the day and they are some of my best memories of growing up through middle and high school. I love the experiences those gave me. It is just the total flip to ALL competition that worries me, and I guess that is why I have become much more "traditionally minded" in the last few years because I feel like we have to hold on tight to what we have in order to keep it.

Laure we compete in AAU and USAT, my son is trying out for the Junior National with both orgs. My wife is the Gold medalist from Last year AAU in Florida. I'm with you about everything having to be about competition what about Tradition, my family will understand the difference but most out in the real world believe the sport side is really a SD in sheep clothing. I hope you are at AAU National this year so we can meet.

 

[exile]

Sure, there are lots of important skills for a martial artist to have, but that doesn't mean they necessarily belong in forms. We don't see any running laps or jump rope in forms to show endurance. We don't do the splits in forms to show static flexibility.We don't kick targets or boards in forms to show accuracy.All these (and more) aspects are important to being a good martial artist, but traditionally that was not the purpose of forms. I guess it is just see the original reasoning behind them be thrown away to be more conducive to competition is what gets me.

**Edit: I should have read Exile's post first. He explains my above section much better than I!**

Re the stuff in bold: Lauren, c'mon, you put it beautifully. Those are great specific examples that nail down the fundamental idea of what the forms do well and what they do not. Look, for example, at breaking: if you want to train for efficient power delivery to a small area—a vital skill for MA use—breaking is terrific training, but we don't find it in forms, because there are much more effective ways to develop that skill (including dedicated training in breaking) than breaking a board as move 16 of some hypothetical hyung. That's a great point—please don't sell short your own very persuasive way of putting the matter, OK?

I've separated out your examples in color coding because I like the range of cases you cite. They add up to a very nice set of arguments about what hyungs are, and what they aren't, and why we shouldn't mess around with them in the way that the KKW seems be determined to do...

And I STILL don't understand why our current forms couldn't have been used in higher level competition. All WTF forms are supposed to be standardized and they are definitely not. Why not actually mandate a specific competition standard for current forms and then anyone choosing to compete must alter their forms to match this standard (any master who doesn't have his students compete can of course keep doing them the way he feels is best). I don't know. I guess as long as all TKD forms don't turn in to this new sport style it doesn't really matter if there are a couple of flash in the pan forms out there, but to me it just all seems like a slippery slope.

BEWARE THE SLIPPERY SLOPE!!!!!!
​

That's putting it as well as I think it can be put. And that's what worries me: once this kind of `hyung' becomes legitimized, there is absolutely nothing to keep the technical canon from becoming more and more overloaded with such forms. Even without an official mandate (the way first the Pinans were suppressed, then the Palgwes were marginalized), if these are the kind of forms that lead performers to higher scores, does anyone really think that most competitors will persist in the traditional forms simply because they are traditional and incorporate combat content (content that many of the competitors themselves are unaware of)? Isn't the progressive adaptation of the new KKW canon far more likely? I mean, the judges are going to have the KKW looking over their shoulders at the higher competitive levels... look at the way judging in figure skating has become totally unprincipled and political in nature, for a glimpse into the near future!

As to the split that has happened and will continue.

Yup.

My take is simple, if you enjoy competing then complete. If you enjoy Tradition then find tradition, the problem is we have no tradition anymore every single Tom, Dick and Harry does there own thing. In the TKD world every single person has the hidden agenda and association, you rank me I'll rank you and so on and so on. We have lost what once was, to qoute a movie about King Authur. Never can it be found because to mant self rightous asses are in control of what once was.

Yup again.

I have been doing TKD for half my life, seen it all fake certs., GM never sending certificates over to the Kukkiwon and people never recieving them. The raise of the all mighty McDojaangs and the power they can produce in a city of such naive people.

Training has become a joke, SD principle are being re-invented everyday, Yea right and I'm the pope of the Cathelic Church for God sake. Remember what once was is a phase of people like me old and tired of the politics and seeing new people get some powers and change everything, I will always be a 4th for I feel there is nobody worthy to test me again, all these test are a joke if you pay enough money you have a new rank if you play the game you have a new rank and if you kiss those asses enough you wil be a GM in no time.

Terry, I think this is an inevitable byproduct of massive top-down organizational control taking precedence over the individual school. We all pay lip service to the Kwan era, but the great thing about the Kwan era was that those guys each went his own way, and didn't give up his vision of the right way to do things just to have a bigger piece of the pie. That changed in the late 1950s and set TKD on the road to state control, entanglement in the (frequently corrupt) politics and deal-brokering of the Olympic `movement', and led to a situation in which—as I see it, anyway—considerations of national prestige have led the TKD Central Directorate to dilute the martial content of TKD to the point where you really have to sympathize with all those nasty comments that people make about it on The Site Which Must Not Be Named and elsewhere....

But you know, no matter what happens, we're still gonna be around. The great thing is that this isn't Korea; no matter what the KKW decides, we can determine our own curricula.

Sorry things like this just upsets the living crap out of me and it will continue to do so. I am doomed to see what I love and have devoted my life to be destoyed by money hungry power tripping people that really do not give a damm about the Art or anybody that is evolved in the Arts.

No, it's not going to be destroyed. The WTF/KKW two-step, Tweedledee and Tweedledum, will go their merry way, but my guess is, in North America and the UK, a martial art version of TKD will continue and emerge as a separate component of the KMA universe, in the same way that TSD did. Eventually we may find ourselves—our part of the TKD story—reuniting with the TSDers. That's a private fantasy of mine, but I think the line of development the KKW seems set on pursuing is going to lead to that outcome, sooner or later... but in any case, nothing is going to be destroyed as long as we keep teaching TKD the way we see it and others do the same...