10 year old black belt

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

I think they call it careless indefference. Simply meaning you did something without any thought as to what might result from it.
Yes I think the courts can hold an instructor responsible if he/she teaches killing or joint manipulation/dislocation, or instructs students to stomp someone when they are down. The student is a child and doing what they where told to do, by the instructor, just another reason for not giveing Black belts out to childern.

Yes but what about an adult student? I think the knowledge of when to use force is left to the person involved in the altercation, no? I mean, we don't hold gun retailers responsable for shooting deaths in adults. We do in children, or the adult that purchased the gun, most times, but in adults isn't it a different story?

7sm

 

[tshadowchaser]

Agreed, adults are judged on their actions because they are adults. I'm not sure if anyone has put an instructor on trail for what they teach adults unless the instructor advocated violence in the streets and/or gang use of the skills.
An adult with mental handicaps might be a different story in court when it had to be determined if they should have been shown certian techniques. Darn glad I have never had to sit on a jury in a martial arts case.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Agreed, adults are judged on their actions because they are adults. I'm not sure if anyone has put an instructor on trail for what they teach adults unless the instructor advocated violence in the streets and/or gang use of the skills.
An adult with mental handicaps might be a different story in court when it had to be determined if they should have been shown certian techniques. Darn glad I have never had to sit on a jury in a martial arts case.

Wow, yes that would be difficult! Thanks for your opinions, I'm glad we could discuss that like adults.

7sm

 

[DireWolf]

Children and black belts are like children and pokemon toys. Every kid wants one, and there is always someone willing to sell it to them. I may make a few enemies here (oh well :shrug: ) but I believe that the rank of black belt is so diluted that it is almost worthless. I like to look to the history for this...funny how in Japan the black belt could take years of full time (& I mean live in full time) training but you can get one over here in a couple of years of casual training.

I think it is a joke and a bad taste one at that. It is sad to see the rank cheapened. How many of the traditional masters had 10 year old black belts?

Please pardon the rant. I just feel strongly about this. I think a black belt should be awarded on the basis of years of dedication and maturity in the eyes of the master. To grade it on how many forms you can perform (let's face it, how many forms can you MASTER in two years?) is crass commercialism. I know a guy who has been practising Wing Chun for 20 years and is still finding new applications for the Sil Lum Tao (1st form).

But the world is the way it is...

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by DireWolf
I like to look to the history for this...funny how in Japan the black belt could take years of full time (& I mean live in full time) training but you can get one over here in a couple of years of casual training.

Funny, as I understand it you can get a BB in your first year university over there. In a year. The idea though that when you get it then you REALLY have to start studying hard as you've decided to become a student.

But I could be wrong.

 

[Shinzu]

i agree with u direwolf. years ago people used to say..."WOW"!!... now they say.."Yeah, i know 50 people that are black belts also".

sad but true. it does not mean the same as it used to. but for those that put the time, dedication, and effort into it... they know it is truly well deserved.

 

[Bujingodai]

In our system. Kids class goes til 13. Kids are eligable for 3 belts yellow orange and green. At 13 they re evaluate, that may put them at an adult orange. No one under 16 and an old 16 may get it. Too much is expected of it for an immature teen.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Shinzu

i agree with u direwolf. years ago people used to say..."WOW"!!... now they say.."Yeah, i know 50 people that are black belts also".

sad but true. it does not mean the same as it used to. but for those that put the time, dedication, and effort into it... they know it is truly well deserved.

But should your ranking or belt in a system invoke people to say "wow"? I mean isn't the knowledge you learn in MA for yourself not for others to see? I'm just thinking, alot of people use their belt or ranking as a means of saying, "I'm better than you", or "Look at me, I'm a black belt". Isn't that self defeating ?

7sm

 

[DireWolf]

I think what Shinzu is saying is that the black belt was once something treated with respect. The wearer didn't go out and say "Hey everyone!!! I'm a black belt! How cool am I?". Nowadays everyone knows somebody who knows the absolute rudiments of a martial art and has a black belt (and couldn't win a fight if their life depened on it) and this has cheapened it. Once a black belt was symbolic of years of dedication and sacrifice. Now it's more symbolic of a hobby or a money grab.

I mean isn't the knowledge you learn in MA for yourself not for others to see?

I don't think so always. A professional soccer player doesn't hide the fact that he plays soccer. Why should I hide the fact that I do martial arts? I understand the humility one gains through years of MA study, but I think that to hide or not speak about one's passion is deceiving. My friends all know I love MA. Some of them have even been influenced enough that they too have started down the path and are reaping the rewards that come from disciplined study. I think there is a case for both sides.

Peace
:yinyang:
DW

 

[rmcrobertson]

I happen to know an eleven-year-old who's a black belt. He started when he was four; before he got his belt, he studied for six years. Two private classes, and at least one group class--for the last three years, two--a week. I might add he worked hard. When he tested for black, he did so with adults. The test lasted over two hours, during which he sat dead quiet until it was his turn. Was he perfect? No. Neither were the adults. Tell me: why isn't this good enough for you?

Since he got his belt, he trains even harder. He helps teach the younger kids. I have never seen him, no matter how stressed or tried or cranky, lose his temper. I have never seen him be unkind to someone, which is more than I can say of me. Tell me: why isn't this good enough for you?

Y'all are running on a fantasy of perfection and maturity in adults that is very far from the truth. No, this kid can't beat up every adult. (Though ask me, sometime, why his Dad has a buddy everybody now calls, "Speedbag.") Neither can I. Among other horrors, I train with Clyde. Is he a better martial artists? yes. can he beat me up? yes. Will this always be true? yes. Is he the only one of whom I might say this? No.

I quite agree with the notion that kids, on the whole, get promoted too damn fast. I agree that their yuppie damn parents demand this, for the same messed-up reasons that their yuppie damn parents foul up kids' soccer, and baseball, and football games.

However: is this true of every kid? No. My other comment is that this argument is running off a flawed notion of perfection in adults, who more often fail to be real martial artists than kids do.

Oh, incidentally--this is not the only kid I know who deserves his belt.

Thanks.

 

[GouRonin]

Someone once said that "When a kitten is cornered he will fight like a tiger."

But he'll still fight with the knowledge and power of a kitten.

I say 18. I don't care if you don't like it. I don't recognize kids under 18 as black belts. Maybe Junior Black belts. But that's it.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ya but with that mentality then you must agree that you wouldnt recognise 80% of adults black belts as black belts either.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Ya but with that mentality then you must agree that you wouldnt recognise 80% of adults black belts as black belts either.

I agree. I don't recognize at least 50% of adult black belts. But they're at least 80% more towards being a black belt than kids are.

 

[7starmantis]

I don't know, just because you or I, or anyone doesn't recognize a kid as a black belt doesn't mean they haven't worked just as hard to get to that level as we have. I know a 12 year old kid who just tested for brown level 2 which is just below black, and he is more mature and respectful than 95% of adults I deal with on a daily basis! I think if a younger kid sticks with it for that many years and tests hard with the adults he/she deserves it just as much as the other adults who passed the test as well.

7sm

 

[Nightingale]

but is he following the adult curriculum, or is he using a pared down children's version?

if he's not learning all the material, he shouldn't be a regular black belt.

if he is learning all the material as an adult black belt, and he is held to the same expectations as an adult testing for that rank would be, then he is the exception, and probably deserves his belt. I met a 14 year old 2nd degree black belt who more than deserved her rank. she had the material and the mental focus and the ability to make it work, but she is an exception.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

but is he following the adult curriculum, or is he using a pared down children's version?

if he's not learning all the material, he shouldn't be a regular black belt.

if he is learning all the material as an adult black belt, and he is held to the same expectations as an adult testing for that rank would be, then he is the exception, and probably deserves his belt. I met a 14 year old 2nd degree black belt who more than deserved her rank. she had the material and the mental focus and the ability to make it work, but she is an exception.

Yes I agree, they should have the same material as the adults, that is what we do in our school, so I can't speak for others. Yes there are kids who do not deserve theri belts, and adults alike, but those that truly work for it should have it I believe.

7sm

 

[Nightingale]

you said "those that truly work for it"

I've seen adults who come in, work their tails off, and just plain can't do it. Would you give these folks belts?

I believe a better phrase would be "those that truly master the requirements"

is that what you meant?

just wanting clarification.

respectfully,

Nightingale

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

you said "those that truly work for it"

I've seen adults who come in, work their tails off, and just plain can't do it. Would you give these folks belts?

I believe a better phrase would be "those that truly master the requirements"

is that what you meant?

just wanting clarification.

respectfully,

Nightingale

You know, people have said that before, they have seen people who work their tales off and never "get it". I guess no they would not be able to pass the test so they would not get a belt, but I have a hard time believing that someone could work seriously, with enough time and not begin to master the moves and forms, or what have you. Even if it takes a year for the first belt, they are learning it and are working for it. That is my thoughts on it, thats why I said it that way.
Yes the test includes certain techniques that must be mastered to pass the test, but simply learning the moves is not mastering the techniques either, correct ?

7sm

 

[Nightingale]

exactly... just learning the moves is not enough.

you have to understand the ideas that go with the moves.

And yes, I have seen some adults come in for over a year... they are either just clutzes, uncoordinated, or have lousy memories, but it took them like a year and a half to just learn short form 1 (beginner kenpo form with only like 8 stance changes...step back/block, step back/block, step left/block, step back/block, etc...)

what I was asking, is do you give these folks a belt, because they're there and try so hard, or do you make them wait until they really know their stuff, with the possibility that they might get discouraged?

Personally, I'd make them wait, and if they really needed some kind of validation, I'd stick a yellow tab on their white belt to indicate when they knew half their material for their next belt. Ultimately, its up to the individual instructor, though.

-N-

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by nightingale8472


what I was asking, is do you give these folks a belt, because they're there and try so hard, or do you make them wait until they really know their stuff, with the possibility that they might get discouraged?

Personally, I'd make them wait, and if they really needed some kind of validation, I'd stick a yellow tab on their white belt to indicate when they knew half their material for their next belt. Ultimately, its up to the individual instructor, though.

-N-

Well, in my system there is really no belts, but we have a level system at my school. Your first test is the white level though. Since each level has specific forms you must know and perform as well as the application for them, certain time in horse stance, running, ect, then no, if they could not complete all the material in the tests, then they would not pass the test and "level up". People do get discouraged, but in most CMA there are no belts so we try and explain to our students that it is all about them and taking it in their time. I would most likely not encourage someone to test if they haven't gotten the material since its pretty harsh to fail a test, especially a white level.
I guess there is a balance to keep people interested and to maintain your teaching style, but in a system with no belts, its different. We don't wear sashes or anything in class that would show our "rank". The only thing I have to show mine is a certificate for each level, and the word of my Sifu as to how long I've been studying.

7sm