Shihoken

[SahBumNimRush]

Can anyone tell me about the form taught by Ki Whang Kim, called Shihoken. I've heard that it was taught to him by Kanken Toyama, and that it may be a version of Shisochin (a Goju Ryu kata). I remember seeing it performed at tournaments years ago. I saw this video the other day on youtube and it got me thinking about this form.

 

[J. Pickard]

I mean, either way she's pretty good.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I mean, either way she's pretty good.

Yeah, she's got some serious skill. The cadence of her forms are interesting. Different than how I perform Ship Soo and Rohai, but very crisp and deliberate.

 

[slindsey15]

Yeah, she's got some serious skill. The cadence of her forms are interesting. Different than how I perform Ship Soo and Rohai, but very crisp and deliberate.

My instructor has lineage to Ki Whang Kim.
What do you want to know about the form? I can ask.

In doing my own search into the form, I did come across this.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5ae4f72d36099b34d8f82747/t/5b0c1ddb2b6a288855b2890e/1527520731973/40-SABANG-KWON+HYUNG+-+MASTER+KIM+KI-WHANGS+LEGACY.pdf

 

[SahBumNimRush]

My instructor has lineage to Ki Whang Kim.
What do you want to know about the form? I can ask.

In doing my own search into the form, I did come across this.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5ae4f72d36099b34d8f82747/t/5b0c1ddb2b6a288855b2890e/1527520731973/40-SABANG-KWON+HYUNG+-+MASTER+KIM+KI-WHANGS+LEGACY.pdf

I have never seen any other style practice this form, so I was just curious if this was a form that Ki Whang Kim created or if it was an older Okinawan form that may have a different name in other styles. If Sa Bang Kwon and Shihoken are names for the same form, that is helpful. Particularly since the article you referenced sites it as an Okinawan form. Do you know the name of the form in okinawan? or how it is written in Hangul?

 

[slindsey15]

I have never seen any other style practice this form, so I was just curious if this was a form that Ki Whang Kim created or if it was an older Okinawan form that may have a different name in other styles. If Sa Bang Kwon and Shihoken are names for the same form, that is helpful. Particularly since the article you referenced sites it as an Okinawan form. Do you know the name of the form in okinawan? or how it is written in Hangul?

I said I'd ask my instructor - and I will...just might be a week.

Ultimately I have the same questions you do.

I've been trying to figure out if it has other names - but no luck so far.

What I have noticed is the school I currently attend tends not to use the korean names for the advanced forms. They teach Chinte, Shihoken, Lo hi, Chinto, and Kan Ku Dai.
Ro Hi, Jin Do, and Kang Sang Koon are fairly common in TSD. Chinte is a bit rarer, and the version I'm learning has changes (the beginning looks more like Ji'in). I can't find any examples of Shihoken that don't connect to Ki Whang Kim. They're all tied to the Maryland/DC area. I'm in FL, but the people I train with learned from an instructor who was from Maryland.

If you look into Ki Whang Kim, he seems to have studied Shudokan, which is known for unique kata.
I wasn't able to find any mention of the form in Shudokan or Shorin-Ryu sources. I will say there are some distinct differences in students of this lineage. They tend to step in arcs like okinawans, and there are some interesting form differences in the pyung ahn and nihanchi series. This speaks to me of a guy who got affiliated with Tang Soo Do late and had strong influences from non moo duk kwan sources...OR a guy who was creative and liked to tinker. I find the Shudokan connection intriguing and quitely wonder if it's not a Rohai variant or a combination with Sip soo or something(but that's just wild conjecture)
Check out some of the videos here....Dale Thompkins studied under Ki-Whang Kim. also in maryland

Instructional Videos – Forms | Tompkins Karate Association

 

[gyoja]

They tend to step in arcs like okinawans

How do you mean. As in your lead leg moves in a crescent pattern as you step forward? If so, how are you taught to step?

 

[slindsey15]

How do you mean. As in your lead leg moves in a crescent pattern as you step forward? If so, how are you taught to step?

I was taught 2 different ways by 2 different instructors. One way is the crescent. Feet nearly come together at you step forward in a front stance for example...like when doing low block or punch line drills. I'm not sure if it's connected...but this footwork was taught with the back foot turned out slightly.

I've seen versions where students tuck the back foot under the leading knee in stepping as well.

The other way doesn't emphasize the Cresent. The distance between feet remains much wider. Again unsure if connected...but this way they drilled both feet straight forward.

And fwiw...both systems argued their way favored balance if pushed while stepping. My honest opinion is they optimize for different things.

More like this (Crescent not emphasized)

Or this (Again not emphasized)

 

[gyoja]

I was taught 2 different ways by 2 different instructors. One way is the crescent. Feet nearly come together at you step forward in a front stance for example...like when doing low block or punch line drills. I'm not sure if it's connected...but this footwork was taught with the back foot turned out slightly.

I've seen versions where students tuck the back foot under the leading knee in stepping as well.

The other way doesn't emphasize the Cresent. The distance between feet remains much wider. Again unsure if connected...but this way they drilled both feet straight forward.

And fwiw...both systems argued their way favored balance if pushed while stepping. My honest opinion is they optimize for different things.

More like this (Crescent not emphasized)

Or this (Again not emphasized)

Ok. In the front stance, we were taught to step in a crescent (not exaggerated), with both feet facing forward in Korea. I believe GM Hwang changed things progressively; of course eventually culminating in SBD.

 

[slindsey15]

Ok. In the front stance, we were taught to step in a crescent (not exaggerated), with both feet facing forward in Korea. I believe GM Hwang changed things progressively; of course eventually culminating in SBD.

Wasn't able to get a solid answer on Shihoken unfortunately. Only that it was taught to my teacher's teacher, who studied under Ki Wang Kim and later Dale Thompkins during the 60s in Maryland. He knew there was another "tournament" version, but nothing on origin or hangul. Instructors notes only have the english spelling: Shi Ho Ken (extraordinary hand) , but the translation doesn't make sense to me. Spent all week searching on the internet and everything I ever found leads me back to Tang Soo Do Schools in the Washington DC/maryland area, which is where Ki Whang Kim taught.
I even tried emailing a couple of the schools to ask, but no one replied. I'm inclined to think he created the form, based on the lack of references anywhere else. If I were going to look harder - I'd look into Shudokan and Shorin Ryu kata.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Wasn't able to get a solid answer on Shihoken unfortunately. Only that it was taught to my teacher's teacher, who studied under Ki Wang Kim and later Dale Thompkins during the 60s in Maryland. He knew there was another "tournament" version, but nothing on origin or hangul. Instructors notes only have the english spelling: Shi Ho Ken (extraordinary hand) , but the translation doesn't make sense to me. Spent all week searching on the internet and everything I ever found leads me back to Tang Soo Do Schools in the Washington DC/maryland area, which is where Ki Whang Kim taught.
I even tried emailing a couple of the schools to ask, but no one replied. I'm inclined to think he created the form, based on the lack of references anywhere else. If I were going to look harder - I'd look into Shudokan and Shorin Ryu kata.

Thank you for inquiring up your chain of command. I have looked at all canon Shudokan and Shorin Ryu kata, and I cannot find anything with those sets of movements. The closest that I found was Shisochin kata, but I'm not convinced that Shihoken is derived from Shisochin.

 

[slindsey15]

Thank you for inquiring up your chain of command. I have looked at all canon Shudokan and Shorin Ryu kata, and I cannot find anything with those sets of movements. The closest that I found was Shisochin kata, but I'm not convinced that Shihoken is derived from Shisochin.

 

[slindsey15]

Thank you for inquiring up your chain of command. I have looked at all canon Shudokan and Shorin Ryu kata, and I cannot find anything with those sets of movements. The closest that I found was Shisochin kata, but I'm not convinced that Shihoken is derived from Shisochin.

I looked into Shisochin as well since the names are similar - but am also not convinced of the relationship.

The two key movements I've looked for are the "tiger hands" at the beginning, and the swinging crescent kick near the end. The kick looks to me like a kung fu move - hence Kwon Bop reference above.

There is a similar kick in Suparinpei, but there's a lot of extra stuff in the beginning of that form (and it's crazy long).

I've found "shortened" versions of it - but this is still a pretty big reach, imo. Here are two examples, for what they're worth.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I looked into Shisochin as well since the names are similar - but am also not convinced of the relationship.

The two key movements I've looked for are the "tiger hands" at the beginning, and the swinging crescent kick near the end. The kick looks to me like a kung fu move - hence Kwon Bop reference above.

There is a similar kick in Suparinpei, but there's a lot of extra stuff in the beginning of that form (and it's crazy long).

I've found "shortened" versions of it - but this is still a pretty big reach, imo. Here are two examples, for what they're worth.

After looking at numerous forms available online, I agree with the Kwon Bop origin. I know next to nothing about the Kwon Bop influence in early TKD development, other than the Chang Moo Kwan taught it. I know the stories of Hwang Kee studying with a martial artist while working on the railroad in Manchuria. Some have referenced this as Kung Fu, others have referenced this as being Gogen Yamaguchi (Goju Ryu), as he was working in Manchuria on the railroad at the same time as Hwang Kee. Beyond that I am mostly ignorant on the subject.

 

[slindsey15]

After looking at numerous forms available online, I agree with the Kwon Bop origin. I know next to nothing about the Kwon Bop influence in early TKD development, other than the Chang Moo Kwan taught it. I know the stories of Hwang Kee studying with a martial artist while working on the railroad in Manchuria. Some have referenced this as Kung Fu, others have referenced this as being Gogen Yamaguchi (Goju Ryu), as he was working in Manchuria on the railroad at the same time as Hwang Kee. Beyond that I am mostly ignorant on the subject.

My Interpretation is Kwon Bop is just the korean word for what we'd call Kung Fu in English.

I believe White Crane Kung Fu is what was transmitted to Okinawa. 唐手道 is pronounced Táng shǒu dào in Mandarin. The Okinawans called it To-de in their language. The Japanese pronounced the characters Karate-do, and the koreans pronounced it Tang Soo Do (but they're all from the same source, albeit with heavy cultural overlays). The Okinawans taught their styles to the Japanese who adopted it and changed the first character to disassociate the art with China (Tang being the Tang Dynasty of China). Korea was occupied by the Japanese Empire around the same time the Okinawans were popularizing karate with the Japanese, and non Japanese Martial arts were outlawed in korea. So the Koreans learned the "japanese/okinawan" martial arts which are karate, but are also kind of kung fu. Ki-Whang Kim in particular studied under Kanken Toyama, as you referenced in an earlier post. Toyama was okinawan, and also studied Kungfu/Chuan Fa.

Bring this back on topic - Shihoken is probably rooted in an okinawan version of a kwon bop/kung fu form(IF Kim didn't invent it). Most TSD forms are okinawan, but some go back to China. I don't think the reference to Hwang Kee learning in Manchuria matters here. What he learned probabaly ultimately impacted Soo Bahk Do, but my sense is that most Tang Soo Do schools teaching in the US are teaching the korean form of karate that was prevelant between the end of WWII (when the koreans were liberated from Japan and allowed to open their own martial arts schools) and the kwan merger that happened in the 60s. After that you get the Taekwondo federations who created new forms, and the Soo Bahk Do organization which created new forms...and then Tang soo do sorta got left behind, keeping all of it's karate forms. But of course you'll have people who fall in between those categories. Ki-Whang Kim appears to have learned okinawan karate, then affiliated with Hwang Kee to get sponsorship to the US (so called his style Tang Soo Do), then ultimately participated in the Kwan merger and started calling it TaeKwon Do...while still teaching all the old okinawan kata.

If you have a kindle unlimted membership with Amazon prime, I recommend checking out Len Losik's Tang Soo Do: the complete story or Tang Soo Do: The Complete book of Hyungs. Both have excellent sections on the history of the Kwans before the merger. Both are currently free to read with a membership (I don't know if I'd pay the price they ask for them) Shihoken isn't anywhere to be found though.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

My Interpretation is Kwon Bop is just the korean word for what we'd call Kung Fu in English.

I believe White Crane Kung Fu is what was transmitted to Okinawa. 唐手道 is pronounced Táng shǒu dào in Mandarin. The Okinawans called it To-de in their language. The Japanese pronounced the characters Karate-do, and the koreans pronounced it Tang Soo Do (but they're all from the same source, albeit with heavy cultural overlays). The Okinawans taught their styles to the Japanese who adopted it and changed the first character to disassociate the art with China (Tang being the Tang Dynasty of China). Korea was occupied by the Japanese Empire around the same time the Okinawans were popularizing karate with the Japanese, and non Japanese Martial arts were outlawed in korea. So the Koreans learned the "japanese/okinawan" martial arts which are karate, but are also kind of kung fu. Ki-Whang Kim in particular studied under Kanken Toyama, as you referenced in an earlier post. Toyama was okinawan, and also studied Kungfu/Chuan Fa.

I've heard/seen claims of a few different styles that were transmitted/influenced Okinawan To-de/tui-te; white crane being one of them. I've also seen Incense Shop Boxing referenced. I had not considered Chinese influence of Korean arts being transmitted via Okinawa. I know Shippalki looks a lot like Northern Mantis and Long fist. Kwon Bop I am much less familiar with. I am familiar with the Japanese occupation and the limitations is had on Korean culture at the time, which brought more Japanese/Okinawan influence to the Korean culture, including martial arts.

Bring this back on topic - Shihoken is probably rooted in an okinawan version of a kwon bop/kung fu form(IF Kim didn't invent it). Most TSD forms are okinawan, but some go back to China. I don't think the reference to Hwang Kee learning in Manchuria matters here. What he learned probabaly ultimately impacted Soo Bahk Do, but my sense is that most Tang Soo Do schools teaching in the US are teaching the korean form of karate that was prevelant between the end of WWII (when the koreans were liberated from Japan and allowed to open their own martial arts schools) and the kwan merger that happened in the 60s. After that you get the Taekwondo federations who created new forms, and the Soo Bahk Do organization which created new forms...and then Tang soo do sorta got left behind, keeping all of it's karate forms. But of course you'll have people who fall in between those categories. Ki-Whang Kim appears to have learned okinawan karate, then affiliated with Hwang Kee to get sponsorship to the US (so called his style Tang Soo Do), then ultimately participated in the Kwan merger and started calling it TaeKwon Do...while still teaching all the old okinawan kata.

My KJN came to the U.S. in 1968 to represent the MDK. Like, Ki Whang Kim, he kept the old curriculum, but embraced the new name of TKD. Most of the schools we associated with back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's were similar, although some were of different kwan affiliations. Ki Whang Kim, IJ Kim, Kyongwon Ahn, CS Kim, SH Kim, Joon Pyo Choi, etc.

If you have a kindle unlimted membership with Amazon prime, I recommend checking out Len Losik's Tang Soo Do: the complete story or Tang Soo Do: The Complete book of Hyungs. Both have excellent sections on the history of the Kwans before the merger. Both are currently free to read with a membership (I don't know if I'd pay the price they ask for them) Shihoken isn't anywhere to be found though.