Question about Jo staff diameter/thickness

[mike 165]

Hi,
I am getting back into martial arts after a long absence (Tae Kwon Do). I have a lot of work to do to get back to being proficient.
Having said that, I've recently developed interest in the Jo staff. Still in the early beginner learning stages, but I started with a 4 ft poplar rod at my local hardware because it was cheap and I didn't know if I would retain an interest.
In looking online, I have seen a couple of references from different suppliers to a "combat" Jo. These are invariably 1 and 1/4" thick as opposed to the standard I am seeing of 1".
I want to learn the form, but I definitely do want a Jo that is fully capable of contact/defensive use.
I found a wooden closet rod that is 1 and 5/16" diameter, and made of some type of very dense hardwood, and cut that down to 4 ft. It is heavy and solid, but is causing me zero issues in handling, although I'm pretty sure it is slower to wield than a thinner staff.
I would appreciate experienced advice.

 

[hoshin1600]

Choosing a Jo

Jo Length There is a rule, and exceptions to it when deciding the size of a jo (medium length staff used in Aikido), Jodo and other sword/staff practices. The rule (and this comes from ancient times) is that the jo is cylindrical in shape and has specific proportions of 50 1/4" x 15/16"...

kingfisherwoodworks.com

This may be what your looking for.
Remember a Jo staff is not used like an Okinawan Bo, a Chinese long staff or an English quarter staff.
The technique and tactic is different and the design (thickness) reflects that.
Judging by your post your thinking as if your wielding a larger weapon. Find some in person lessons and follow the advise of your teacher. Otherwise your just making crap up and it doesn't matter what you use. Get yourself a hunk of aluminum dowel if you want to smash things.

 

[mike 165]

Choosing a Jo

Jo Length There is a rule, and exceptions to it when deciding the size of a jo (medium length staff used in Aikido), Jodo and other sword/staff practices. The rule (and this comes from ancient times) is that the jo is cylindrical in shape and has specific proportions of 50 1/4" x 15/16"...

kingfisherwoodworks.com

This may be what your looking for.
Remember a Jo staff is not used like an Okinawan Bo, a Chinese long staff or an English quarter staff.
The technique and tactic is different and the design (thickness) reflects that.
Judging by your post your thinking as if your wielding a larger weapon. Find some in person lessons and follow the advise of your teacher. Otherwise your just making crap up and it doesn't matter what you use. Get yourself a hunk of aluminum dowel if you want to smash things.

Thank you.
Much appreciated.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I found a wooden closet rod that is 1 and 5/16" diameter, and made of some type of very dense hardwood, and cut that down to 4 ft. It is heavy and solid, but is causing me zero issues in handling, although I'm pretty sure it is slower to wield than a thinner staff.

Get stronger. It's as simple as that. Drill - get stronger, Lift weights - Get stronger, Use correct technique - get stronger.

Once you get stronger in these areas then your speed will increase.

This is not realistic speed for a functional self defense staff. If you are trying to get to this speed of swinging a staff then it's not going to happen unless your staff is too thin to be of any real use.

The heavier the staff the stronger you'll have to be in order to make it really move fast. The more you'll have to rely on technique to make it move fast.

Fighting with staff tends to look like this

Can it look different than this? yes. Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what to actually expect when it comes to using a staff for self-defense.

 

[Alan0354]

Get stronger. It's as simple as that. Drill - get stronger, Lift weights - Get stronger, Use correct technique - get stronger.

Once you get stronger in these areas then your speed will increase.

This is not realistic speed for a functional self defense staff. If you are trying to get to this speed of swinging a staff then it's not going to happen unless your staff is too thin to be of any real use.

The heavier the staff the stronger you'll have to be in order to make it really move fast. The more you'll have to rely on technique to make it move fast.

Fighting with staff tends to look like this

Can it look different than this? yes. Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what to actually expect when it comes to using a staff for self-defense.

Good videos.
I have been thinking about using bo staff technique in my cane practice so I can use a longer cane. I have been thinking about increasing the length of the cane for longer reach, but at the same time to choke the cane to make it more compact. That's where technique of bo staff comes into play, how to choke the cane to make it shorter for close quarter fighting. I actually practice swinging in the bathroom and hallway where space are tight.

As for wood, I did some research, sounds like Hickory is a good choice. A little heavy. I don't know the good diameter for bo staff. I hope to get a 1 1/8" for my cane.

 

[mike 165]

JowgaWolf, thanks for the videos and encouragement.
Alan0354, good luck in your journey.

 

[jks9199]

Diameter and length of sticks are all very dependent on the specific style, and the type of wood.. Skipping over the pure demonstration/performance XMA and tricking stuff -- there are basically aout 3 broad ranges. Short and very short run from about palm size to 24 to 30 inches or so, about the length of the forearm. They tend to be a little narrower, ranging from maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch to 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 inches. Medium sticks tend to be loosely 18 to 40 inches or so -- longer than the forearm, up to about shoulder length. Functional sticks in this range tend to be 1 1/2 to a bit over 2 inches or so. Long sticks start at shoulder length, and run towards that 1 3/4 to 2+ inch thickness. Within all of those -- different styles have different preferences. I know bits of a "magical" stick system that tends a little narrower to facilitate the deceptive holds and hides of the system, for example.

Another important factor in the thickness is your hand size. You need to be able hold the stick securely -- if it's too big around, you can't keep your fingers around it well enough.

So, to answer your question... There's no one answer, other than ask your teacher what they recommend. I often have students learn the basics with closet poles because they're easily available and fairly inexpensive. Carefully selected, they'll hold up to SOME contact. If you're going to get into heavy contact, you'll need an appropriate size and material, like ironwood, hickory, or some oak.

 

[mike 165]

Diameter and length of sticks are all very dependent on the specific style, and the type of wood.. Skipping over the pure demonstration/performance XMA and tricking stuff -- there are basically aout 3 broad ranges. Short and very short run from about palm size to 24 to 30 inches or so, about the length of the forearm. They tend to be a little narrower, ranging from maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch to 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 inches. Medium sticks tend to be loosely 18 to 40 inches or so -- longer than the forearm, up to about shoulder length. Functional sticks in this range tend to be 1 1/2 to a bit over 2 inches or so. Long sticks start at shoulder length, and run towards that 1 3/4 to 2+ inch thickness. Within all of those -- different styles have different preferences. I know bits of a "magical" stick system that tends a little narrower to facilitate the deceptive holds and hides of the system, for example.

Another important factor in the thickness is your hand size. You need to be able hold the stick securely -- if it's too big around, you can't keep your fingers around it well enough.

So, to answer your question... There's no one answer, other than ask your teacher what they recommend. I often have students learn the basics with closet poles because they're easily available and fairly inexpensive. Carefully selected, they'll hold up to SOME contact. If you're going to get into heavy contact, you'll need an appropriate size and material, like ironwood, hickory, or some oak.

Thanks, that is great info.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Diameter and length of sticks are all very dependent on the specific style, and the type of wood.. Skipping over the pure demonstration/performance XMA and tricking stuff -- there are basically aout 3 broad ranges. Short and very short run from about palm size to 24 to 30 inches or so, about the length of the forearm. They tend to be a little narrower, ranging from maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch to 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 inches. Medium sticks tend to be loosely 18 to 40 inches or so -- longer than the forearm, up to about shoulder length. Functional sticks in this range tend to be 1 1/2 to a bit over 2 inches or so. Long sticks start at shoulder length, and run towards that 1 3/4 to 2+ inch thickness. Within all of those -- different styles have different preferences. I know bits of a "magical" stick system that tends a little narrower to facilitate the deceptive holds and hides of the system, for example.

Another important factor in the thickness is your hand size. You need to be able hold the stick securely -- if it's too big around, you can't keep your fingers around it well enough.

So, to answer your question... There's no one answer, other than ask your teacher what they recommend. I often have students learn the basics with closet poles because they're easily available and fairly inexpensive. Carefully selected, they'll hold up to SOME contact. If you're going to get into heavy contact, you'll need an appropriate size and material, like ironwood, hickory, or some oak.

He can just buy one from a martial arts store. It will cut out much of the guess work and he'll have a good example or standard to base future purchases if needed. Then he can get something cheaper for training purposes bases on the good staff that he has.

My guess is that everyone who has a staff and trains staff has a least 1 quality staff that all future purchases are based on.

 

[Alan0354]

I can only speak for medium stick as my cane is about 33" long. I find weight is very important. Sure, you can swing a heavier stick, but the recovery time is longer. Even with two hands, 20oz is the max I am comfortable to do for now.

My experience is, don't try to get the ultimate size and weight, I find the more I improve and using whole body, the heavier I can swing. I have so many cane it's not funny, starting with light rattan, getting longer and longer, then to fiber filled Nylon, now Hickory. Just have to get the best for that particular stage, buy new ones are you improve.

I am trying to go to like 35", but it's getting inconvenient taking it out as it's too long to hang on tables in restaurant and easily drop on the floor.

 

[mike 165]

I can only speak for medium stick as my cane is about 33" long. I find weight is very important. Sure, you can swing a heavier stick, but the recovery time is longer. Even with two hands, 20oz is the max I am comfortable to do for now.

My experience is, don't try to get the ultimate size and weight, I find the more I improve and using whole body, the heavier I can swing. I have so many cane it's not funny, starting with light rattan, getting longer and longer, then to fiber filled Nylon, now Hickory. Just have to get the best for that particular stage, buy new ones are you improve.

I am trying to go to like 35", but it's getting inconvenient taking it out as it's too long to hang on tables in restaurant and easily drop on the floor.

Thanks.
I will take that advice. My budget right now is such that I can't really buy a very good quality purpose built Jo right now, and I really only want to buy once, so I'll wait on that.
But the staff I have I'll train with. I'm a wood worker, so I might take a spokeshave to it and trim off a bit of excess thickness; we shall see.
As for cane, I had some physical issues that forced me to use one for about a year. I was poked and prodded, and tested seven ways from Sunday and they never came up with a diagnosis or cause. Whatever it was just went away, but by that time I had stopped going to the dojang and of course stopped training and life moved on, and before I knew it was 10 plus years gone by.
Back to daily training, and I can already see progress, though my flexibility will take a long time to regain, and I'll definitely need to listen to my body carefully.
But the cane is still here, and I will eventually explore that as well. I have it, and it makes sense to learn that as well.

 

[jks9199]

He can just buy one from a martial arts store. It will cut out much of the guess work and he'll have a good example or standard to base future purchases if needed. Then he can get something cheaper for training purposes bases on the good staff that he has.

My guess is that everyone who has a staff and trains staff has a least 1 quality staff that all future purchases are based on.

I find that many of the so-called quality sticks at martial arts stores are rather lacking... They're mass produced, with more of an eye towards appearance than function. Many have poor grain... and you have to pay for the pretty stain they put on it. A closet pole is often cheaper to learn the motions on, and often much more convenient to purchase and pick a decent one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The heavier staffs only require more time to swing If you are holding the end of the staff like a bat. Whatever the size. It's going to be far lighter than a tiebian or mace.

The most important thing for the staff is technique.

take note of how he seings the staff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They're mass produced, with more of an eye towards appearance than function. Many have poor grain... and you have to pay for the pretty stain they put on

Sorry about that. I use wax wood with no stain. All of mine still have bumps where the branches were.

I used one staff with a laminated finish on it and it killed my hand because it was too much grip. I dont use stained staffs because someone told me the chemicals would work its way into my skin. .
I've seen staffs as low as $44 from online martial arts stores. Hard wood walking sticks were cheaper. But soon were $88 USD and higher.

I just saw that Winglam as some wax wood staffs. For $30. I'll buy one tomorrow hopefully.

 

[JowGaWolf]

 

[mike 165]

I watch him a lot. And Saito, I believe is his name, as well as a few others.
I have a poplar staff I made in the beginning, but was afraid it would not stand up in self defense. Same with people saying "Pick up a broomstick to fight off an attacker", etc.
I'm going to hit with force; a broomstick would last me a single strike, then I'd be reduced to stabbing with the {hopefully} pointy end.
But I have smacked that poplar staff against a few things here in the home, and think it might do ok.
All of that is sort of moot, though, as I won't be carrying a staff around everywhere I go.
It's just a psychological thing with me. If I'm going to train with it, I need to see it as a viable weapon.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have a poplar staff I made in the beginning, but was afraid it would not stand up in self defense. Same with people saying "Pick up a broomstick to fight off an attacker"

Broom sticks aren't like they used to be. In the 70's and earlier the broom sticks were heavy and the wood was thick. The ones they have now aren't that good. You can still poke someone really good, getting hit in the face with it won't feel good, but stopping force? I'm not sure.

Those were examples of what happens with a light sticks. They just don't have the mass to do any real damage to the arms, but like if you get hit in the face then even those light sticks will hurt. If the staff is heavy enough then you can start breaking the bone in the arm as they try to shield themselves.

Anyone who has drilled staff without protective gloves knows that it doesn't take a lot of force to hurt those hands or to hurt the head

 

[mike 165]

Love that last one, lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Love that last one, lol.

Not sure what this guy was thinking about, but those jabs with the broom were spot on. That thief was lucky the broom head was still on.

 

[Alan0354]

The heavier staffs only require more time to swing If you are holding the end of the staff like a bat. Whatever the size. It's going to be far lighter than a tiebian or mace.

The most important thing for the staff is technique.

take note of how he seings the staff.

Actually I never learn short short staff, but lately I actually came up very similar idea like this from remembering in the movie.

I am right handed, so left hand at the end of the cane. The cane is too short to strike like in the videos, but I actually use the crook end and PUNCH out like jab or cross punching. I keep my hands close to 4" apart to get better control(cane is too short for any wider grip). I practice very close to in the videos. One thing I have to try is from the first video to step aside to strike.

One thing, The cane should NOT be too heavy. If you hit like in the videos, you can use a lot heavier stick/cane because the target stop the cane. You can recover fast. It's when you MISS, it would be very slow to stop the cane and pull back. I experiment a lot. People should try themselves to swing and miss, see how much the stick pull you.

I use a deflated speed bag, putting 4lbs of soft weight in it and hit with the cane. It moves reasonable fast. I aim at the very bottom so I miss a lot and swing empty. I concentrate on how fast I can recover.

One even more important thing. If you don't get use to missing, when you miss where you expect to hit, there is a chance the cane will fly off your hand particular it's too heavy.

Don't just pick the weight for hitting the bag, pick for miss, recovery time and NOT losing the stick.

I don't think I am weak(not strong either), wearing 75lbs weight jacket to do 25 pushups with feet up 2ft high. Curl 40lbs dumbbells. 20oz cane that is 33" long is the MAX I am comfortable. That's already a huge improvement from last year through better use of body motion. It's the recovery and not losing the stick that really matters.

Just swinging in air DO NOT COUNT. You don't expect to hit anything, so you are prepared. Trouble comes when you expect to hit but miss.