crossing legs?

Enson

3rd Black Belt
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i "checked out" a book from our local library about different martial art styles... mostly because it had a section of ninjutsu. it had a couple of guys from the bujinkan showing some techniques and different defenses. other than their hairstyles being outdated it was alright.

now i saw that they crossed their legs while doing a certain technique and found it strange. in rtms we really don't ever cross our legs while doing any technique for loss of balance and getting yourself tripped up. also i believe upon crossing your legs, for that instant you are limiting your weaponry. now you can't kick in defense.

i was wondering if anyone else uses "crossing legs" technique as a real option in your style? if so why? if not why? i personally don't think its practicle.

peace
 
I'm assuming that the 'crossing legs' you're referring to is Yoko Aruki, used in Koto ryu and Togakure ryu.. There really isn't an unbalanced point in the movement. The step itself is extremely solid and grounded.

Being "limited" also does not happen in yoko aruki, as there is a spiral effect that can occur. Is it possible for you to paste pics from the book?
 
Or be more spacific? there are many manly leg locks we do taht we cross our legs on
 
Enson said:
i "checked out" a book from our local library about different martial art styles... mostly because it had a section of ninjutsu. it had a couple of guys from the bujinkan showing some techniques and different defenses. other than their hairstyles being outdated it was alright.

now i saw that they crossed their legs while doing a certain technique and found it strange. in rtms we really don't ever cross our legs while doing any technique for loss of balance and getting yourself tripped up. also i believe upon crossing your legs, for that instant you are limiting your weaponry. now you can't kick in defense.

i was wondering if anyone else uses "crossing legs" technique as a real option in your style? if so why? if not why? i personally don't think its practicle.

peace

Yeah, I know the position you are talking about... its not a stance or anything like that... its a movement from one position to another. Its actually, as Jay pointed out, a fairly stable and easy movement.
 
i just returned the book today. about 5 days late. i will check it out again after i pay my fee. then i will post the pics somehow. i'll try and scan them.

it is a movement from one position to another. like i mentioned we don't practice it. as far as it being effective form of movement...? well i guess the togakure ryu would be the ones to know. i don't know the japanese names for the movements and i don't think it had the names of the techniques. anyway i'll try and check it out again soon. maybe today after work.
peace
 
the crossing legs thing is alot like the flow..from what iv'e seen its a transition move.

Think of it like this..

In order to walk u have to raise a foot. If u were to take the stance of one foot it would be unstable..but we assume taking that one step leads to putting the footdown..
 
Enson said:
i just returned the book today....... anyway i'll try and check it out again soon. maybe today after work. peace
Until then, can you describe the movements you saw in the book? I can remember a couple of instances where you cross, but it usually has to do with spinning or turning kicks etc. In some Kung Fu arts, I've seen it quite a bit (with swords and other weapons). Personally, I'm kind of like you on this one. Seems a weakness. But, I'm definately willing to learn.
 
well i will do my best to discribe it. (still haven't gone back to the library)

you stand up straight (for the bujinkan guys, shizen no kamae), then you cross one leg over the other (making your legs in a "x" shape). also if i remember correctly he has his hands down at his side too. why he would have his hands at his side is beyond me.

peace
 
Enson said:
well i will do my best to discribe it. (still haven't gone back to the library)

you stand up straight (for the bujinkan guys, shizen no kamae), then you cross one leg over the other (making your legs in a "x" shape). also if i remember correctly he has his hands down at his side too. why he would have his hands at his side is beyond me.

peace
It sounds like you're talking about yoko aruki, which is a running technique which allows you to face to the side. We also employ it as a way to move laterally while keeping your body aligned with your opponent, say when employing a wrist lock takedown.
I'm not sure which book you're talking about, but my guess would be that the hands were left down to focus attention on the legs/feet.

Jeff
 
Kreth said:
I'm not sure which book you're talking about, but my guess would be that the hands were left down to focus attention on the legs/feet.

Jeff
that would make sense.
 
The value of crossing the legs can be seen by the wide number of arts with little relationship with each other that use it. If something works, chances are more than one person will think it up.

In Indonesian arts the move it called sempok. In some western sword traditions it can be called quartata, volte or fleche depending on a few ways it is done and used. In one style of Bagua I have seen it refered to as the Pheonix stance. Even modern SWAT teams and the like can be seen to use versions of it on occasion.

Done right, it can be a good tool to keep in the toolbox. But I have seena few people try to learn it on their own and the results were not pretty. In the Bujinkan, cross stepping is most associated with the Koto ryu tradition.
 
Enson said:
well i will do my best to discribe it. (still haven't gone back to the library)

you stand up straight (for the bujinkan guys, shizen no kamae),peace
You're doing the same thing I am. When the Bujinkans say "Shizen no Kamae," I have to open a new page and go look it up. Wish they would give us the english translation too. Now I have to go look up "Koto Ryu." I'm with Hatsumi Sensei: "just stand." (Hope you guys see the polite request I'm making)

Personally, I have enough problems learning balance so I just don't do any type of cross-leg movements. See it a lot in chinese sword demonstrations and some chinese unarmed techniques. But, I'm only 1/32nd Chinese. Must be a transition movement.
 
Wish they would give us the english translation too.

More than likely, sojobow, the English translation wouldn't make any sense to you.

In any event, I do find it interesting that Togakure ryu and Koto ryu methods are being discussed on the "modern ninjutsu/ninjitsu" forum....
 
heretic888 said:
More than likely, sojobow, the English translation wouldn't make any sense to you.

In any event, I do find it interesting that Togakure ryu and Koto ryu methods are being discussed on the "modern ninjutsu/ninjitsu" forum....
"Inquiring minds want to know" would be the most likely reason. You don't think a modern ninjitsu forum would be interested in a 34 generation Japanese Ryu-ha and an I-don't-know-how-old chinese Ryu? This stuff is intriguing. Just found this (in part):
"Koto Ryu - Tiger knocking Down School

The oral teachings of the Koto Ryu say that this art came from China, via Korea by Chang Busho, a Chinese Warrior.
This art was passed through many generations until the first Soke, Sakagami Taro in Japan."

Nothing wrong with backtracking through history to see where we came from so we'll know where we are going.
http://www.ninjutsu.co.nz/NinjutsuHistory2.htm
 
sojobow said:
"Inquiring minds want to know" would be the most likely reason. You don't think a modern ninjitsu forum would be interested in a 34 generation Japanese Ryu-ha and an I-don't-know-how-old chinese Ryu?
I would put more faith into what's written here:
http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html

Although, if you're just looking for information, the "Budo Daijiten" covers quite a bit, but of course there's alot more passed on through oral tradition.:asian:
 
heretic888 said:
In any event, I do find it interesting that Togakure ryu and Koto ryu methods are being discussed on the "modern ninjutsu/ninjitsu" forum....
the original question was for modern applications. we enjoy imput from the traditional guys though when they come to help. we were wondering why in the world would you tie up your legs crossing them when they can be used as effective weapons? thats when jay bell, technopunk and others stepped in to help clear things up. just a bunch of ninjutsu practicioners enjoying/discussing the differences.
Every stance you have is weak if you allow your opponent time to readjust his position.
Sean
i like that! it was good for me!

peace
 
"Inquiring minds want to know" would be the most likely reason. You don't think a modern ninjitsu forum would be interested in a 34 generation Japanese Ryu-ha and an I-don't-know-how-old chinese Ryu?

You may be well and "interested", but it is not appropriate to the forum. This would be like if we started a conversation about Tae Kwon Do kata on an Okinawan karate forum.

Also, to note, there is no such thing as a "Chinese ryu".

Nothing wrong with backtracking through history to see where we came from so we'll know where we are going.

You realize you are referring to a +1,000 year old oral history that may or may not be true, correct?? And, furthemore, has nothing to do with the yoko aruki of the ryuha in question??

the original question was for modern applications. we enjoy imput from the traditional guys though when they come to help. we were wondering why in the world would you tie up your legs crossing them when they can be used as effective weapons? thats when jay bell, technopunk and others stepped in to help clear things up. just a bunch of ninjutsu practicioners enjoying/discussing the differences.

That's all well and good... but the particulars of a method from the traditional Ninpo ryuha should be discussed in the traditional Ninjutsu forum.

Just sayin'.
 
heretic888 said:
That's all well and good... but the particulars of a method from the traditional Ninpo ryuha should be discussed in the traditional Ninjutsu forum.

Just sayin'.
okay you can copy and paste this forum over there on the traditional side!:rolleyes:
 
Feel free to do so if you wish, enson. But, I have absolutely no intention of starting a discussion about yoko aruki at all.
 
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