Young Black belts

[hemi]

I’ve seen a few threads and a lot of posts on this topic and I wanted to look at this from maybe another angle. I hope this doesn’t open a can but it’s something I have been thinking about as of late.


On the topic of young black belts I noticed a lot of people have very strong opinions some for and some against. I’m not saying I agree with an 8 year old black belt running around and leading classes. That I think would be a slap in the face to the older students. But what about a student that was say 16 years old, went through the ranks did their time and tested for black on the exact same material that the adults test on.

What if this person had great skill in all areas techs, forms, sets, and could hold their own against the adult students in sparring. Is it fair to make them start all over again at white belt and go through the adult curriculum? You are in a sense stripping their black belt away from them.

This is just my opinion but I would have a serious problem with an instructor that would force this on a “younger/junior student” why penalize this student because of age?

I have sparred more than one of our teen students they are now at the rank of 2nd red and it was all I could do to win. Now granted I’m no 2nd Dan but I seem to hold my own against any other student in our school. These teens were harder fights then most of the adults in our school, they are faster, and have more energy them most of their older counterparts. They also have impressive skill in doing their techniques and forms. I love watching them on the mat, it’s inspiring as they are the next generation of Kenpoist.

With that said I would have a hard time not allowing them to become “real Black belts” why give them some half title if they in fact earned the belt they wear.

How do you feel about this?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Eighteen seems to be the legal age of majority. I have met too many young blackbelts that may have had some physical maturity but lacked the mental maturity to be an instructor/blackbelt. Just my take though.

 

[Infinite]

I suppose does the black belt infer maturity?

If it does then age is not the question maturity is... I would personally at 30 gladly learn from a 15 year old that had the skill and the wisdom to teach me.

I always felt the non mcdojo black belts had learned disciplin and honor as well as skills. I'm not sure when a person can live up to it but when they can and when they have the maturity to hold the rank they should have it.

Age does not define maturity.

 

[terryl965]

I suppose does the black belt infer maturity?

If it does then age is not the question maturity is... I would personally at 30 gladly learn from a 15 year old that had the skill and the wisdom to teach me.

I always felt the non mcdojo black belts had learned disciplin and honor as well as skills. I'm not sure when a person can live up to it but when they can and when they have the maturity to hold the rank they should have it.

Age does not define maturity.

I would agree with this approach and Yes Brian is right about maturity but the problem is some adults act so immature when they are thirty.

 

[Infinite]

I would agree with this approach and Yes Brian is right about maturity but the problem is some adults act so immature when they are thirty.

:cheers:

 

[Carol]

Personally I don't think an "adult" black belt should be issued to anyone that cannot take can take legal responsibility for themselves.

IMO, once a child turns 18, then an adult black belt can be issued.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

True some adults have very little maturity. Those individuals will probably not get a blackbelt or instructor ranking in a serious Martial Training Hall. Skill set's not withstanding a younger martial artist generally and simply does not have the wisdom, maturity or ability to change teaching strategies or self defense strategies as an older more experienced adult would. Are there exceptions both way's younger and older? Of course and yet the plethora of younger martial artists who do not have the maturity, knowledge and overall skill set to be at an instructor level is pretty demonstrative. We have become a community of child blackbelts. I know of a local school that has a 13 year old showing techniques and correcting adults in the adult class. Is this 13 year old capable of teaching these adults in a manner that will help them improve their skill's? Not really! He is not because his depth of knowledge is too low. If a question is asked he does not have an answer because he has trained for three years and received a blackbelt. This particular school suffers greatly because most adults simply cannot and will not take them seriously. Unforunately this is not a one case situation but one that is happening around the world.

I have been around some fantastic youthful martial artist's and enjoy their company very, very much and respect the hard work that they put into what they are doing. Does that make them at the level of a wiser more experienced adult blackbelt/instructor?

Unfotunately in most cases absolutely not!

 

[Steel Tiger]

True some adults have very little maturity. Those individuals will probably not get a blackbelt or instructor ranking in a serious Martial Training Hall. Skill set's not withstanding a younger martial artist generally and simply does not have the wisdom, maturity or ability to change teaching strategies or self defense strategies as an older more experienced adult would. Are there exceptions both way's younger and older? Of course and yet the plethora of younger martial artists who do not have the maturity, knowledge and overall skill set to be at an instructor level is pretty demonstrative. We have become a community of child blackbelts. I know of a local school that has a 13 year old showing techniques and correcting adults in the adult class. Is this 13 year old capable of teaching these adults in a manner that will help them improve their skill's? Not really! He is not because his depth of knowledge is too low. If a question is asked he does not have an answer because he has trained for three years and received a blackbelt. This particular school suffers greatly because most adults simply cannot and will not take them seriously. Unforunately this is not a one case situation but one that is happening around the world.

I have been around some fantastic youthful martial artist's and enjoy their company very, very much and respect the hard work that they put into what they are doing. Does that make them at the level of a wiser more experienced adult blackbelt/instructor?

Unfotunately in most cases absolutely not!

I have to agree, wholeheartedly. Experience is the way to see the true depth of technique.

 

[Ping898]

Well I got my black belt at 17, under the age of adulthood, 18....but you know I think I earned it and in the end that is all that matters.

I liked the way my school did it, kids learned a kids ciriculum, which was a modified adult ciriculum, when they hit a certain age/maturity level they transfered to the adult ciriculum, but tended to go through it at a faster rate than say a new adult starting, if the kids were not yet black belt, they stayed at the rank they earned as a kid until they would test for the next belt. We had Jr. Black Belts for kids under the age of 16 and over the age of 16 is was on a case by case basis.

In the end all that matters to me is if you (the kid) earned the belt. You have to earn it through your maturity and your skills.

And if your adult student feel they have nothing to learn from a young student who has earned the right to work to teach them, then I think that adult student needs a few extra lessons themself....

 

[Steel Tiger]

This raises an essential point about the meaning of a black belt. On one hand, it is a symbol that indicates one has successfully attained a certain degree of competence in whatever collection of techniques the school teaches. On the other, it represents something less tangible in the form of a degree of understanding that allows a teacher to impart something more than just technical knowledge.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i have no problem with late teen black belts.

quick show of hands: how many of us know a brown belt in his twenties you wish acted as maturely and respectfully as that one 17 year old black belt in the school?

in our school, we have junior black belts. our childrens' curriculum is completely different from our adult curriculum in focus and structure. once a child reaches junior black, they train up to senior black belt.

for new students coming in, we start anybody over 12 in the junior system. once you hit 13, you're going to be 16-18 when you're eligible for black belt. at 12, you'll be 15-16 for junior black and 17-19 for senior, which feels fair.

the place i get a little nervous is with the real little ones. a 7 year old joins, is theoretically eligible for junior black at 10, therefore theoretically eligible for senior black at age 13. i haven't had to cross that bridge yet, but it does give me an uncomfortableness.

and really, why shouldn't somebody who's given 7 years of practice and training have a black belt? that 13 year old often has his/her head on far straighter than many adult students.

 

[jks9199]

It really all depends on what a black belt means. If the black belt is solely a symbol of achieving some specific degree of technical proficiency after training for a certain amount of time, then the black belt should be issued to anyone who meets that definition.

But -- if the black belt is a symbol fo something more, of accepting certain responsibilities towards the system, and of having a certain degree of insight... That's a different question. And it becomes yet another question if the black belt is also considered evidence of one's qualification to instruct others. In both of these cases -- then a minimum age (assuming corresponding maturity is present!) make sense.

The real "problem" is that there is no single definition of black belt. Skill levels that might be considered black belt in one school or one style may be inadequate in others. Maturity that is considered acceptable in one is intolerable in another. Even within a single system, school, or association, the meaning can change, sometimes overnight. Does that mean that the person who was a black belt under the old testing process isn't as good -- or is better -- than the one under the new? I don't know.

I "judge" black belts within my system by simple criteria; do they show the skills and attitudes I admired and aspired to when I was an under belt, do people whom I respect respect them, and did they pass the test at time they were promoted. If they passed the test -- they're a black belt, and I give them due credit. If they're respected by people I respect -- I respect them. I "judge" black belts in other systems by similar criteria. Unless they give me a reason to doubt, I assume their rank is "legitimate", whatever that may mean.

 

[Kwiter]

I actually trained under a young punk kid for a while, Sensei Ralphie ,about 16 and TOTALLY professional, same with Sensei Vlad, maybe 17-18 and totally professional

O:nen ki' wahi' Bye for now

 

[Stryder]

If a question is asked he does not have an answer because he has trained for three years and received a blackbelt.

This would be the perfect opportunity for the 13yr old to turn to some of the older students for the answer to the question.

student "what would a streetfighter type of opponent tend to do when attacking us in this method?"

13yr old turns to Bob "Bob you were in the Marines right? What's been your experience in this situation?"

Bob "well once we were in a situation and this guy came at me like this and..." Bob continues to show the class what happened and how he responded and the 13yr old continues the technique. Everybody learns.

If I were a Sr. Instructor I would help my junior instructors to handle questions that they did not have the life experience to answer in this manner.

What if he spends the next 5 years truly learning from teaching classes and making mistakes - with guidance, he/she could become a fantastic instructor.

Having said that...yeah 13 is too young to understand the responsibility. I think the right 16 or 17 year old could handle it though.

 

[MJS]

Many schools have a Jr. Black Belt that is given until the student reaches a certain age. In addition, the material is often condensed as well. IMO, the maturity level is going to play a big part. The student needs to show that they're ready to take on wearing a full BB.

Mike

 

[chinto01]

How do you all feel about dojos that teach the same cirriculum to kids that they teach to adults?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i think it's a huge mistake and often indicated a program that hasn't been well thought out.

the needs of a child student are so completely different than the needs of an adult student. in our studio, the programs barely even resemble one another.

 

[Seabrook]

My former Kung Fu instructor has this to say about kids with black belts (it pretty much sums up what I think as well):

http://www.northernblackdragon.com/moneybelt/

 

[chinto01]

Maybe this brings up the point of when is it to young to start a child in the martial arts. I have varied from time to time on this subject but over the last couple of years I have come to the conclusion that real training will not begin until the students are in their teens. I have told my own sons I will not start training them until they are at least 13. This is because I do not want to water the cirriculum down for them.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[bushidomartialarts]

My former Kung Fu instructor has this to say about kids with black belts (it pretty much sums up what I think as well):

http://www.northernblackdragon.com/moneybelt/

*takes a deep breath*

people who belt up children (or anybody) just for the money are a problem.

people who feel the way the author of that website apparently feels are also a problem.

that attitude really just says 'i'm not willing to put the thought and effort into my young students' training to not make black belt a farce. therefore, i'll just dismiss those who are willing.'