Wooden Dummy: Tak Sao Observation

[wingchun100]

I was watching a video of Benny Meng doing the dummy form in slow motion. (Unfortunately I don't have the link right now so I can't share it.) Whenever he does his tak sao, it looks like he is doing it just straight up instead of up and forward. Now I am not trying to disrespect someone who has been doing wing chun way longer and more dedicated than me, but wouldn't the straight up variation only serve to make a punch hit you in the face? It's the FORWARD part that really disrupts the attack. Am I off on this?

 

[Marnetmar]

From what I've been taught, proper WC should put forward motion in every movement which admittedly is something I see on very few dummy forms on the net, everything's either side-to-side or up and down which does nothing to stop or redirect an opponent's motion. However, Benny Meng could very well have a different application for the Tak Sau in mind.

 

[wingchun100]

From what I've been taught, proper WC should put forward motion in every movement which admittedly is something I see on very few dummy forms on the net. However, Benny Meng could very well have a different application for the Tak Sau in mind.

Yeah I would have to dig deeper into it to find out why he does it that way.

 

[mook jong man]

Yeah I would have to dig deeper into it to find out why he does it that way.

He does it that way because he wasn't taught properly.
The main application for the double Tok Sau is its use against an opponents high guard.

The opponents forearms are too high to properly use a Pak Sau to break through so the double Tok Sau's are used to come underneath the opponents elbows which off balance the opponent and opens up the defence.

The way Benny Meng does it is wrong , visualize a big strong dude holding his arms up rigidly , Benny Meng is just basically getting underneath and trying to lift up the big dudes body weight.
You will not move somebody like that.

Chum Kiu theory tells us that we should be attacking with multiple force vectors at the same time , it is very difficult for an opponent to defend against more than one force vector.

So by doing the Tok Sau correctly by going up at an angle towards the opponent you are using two force vectors at once , both up and forward.
This has the effect of unbalancing the opponent and sending him back rather than using Mengs version which is basically just trying to use strength to lift the guys arms up.

In our lineage when we do this against an opponent with a high guard we also use it with a thrust kick.
The double Tok Sau's open them up and off balances them , and the thrust kick sends them on their way.

 

[Vajramusti]

He does it that way because he wasn't taught properly.
The main application for the double Tok Sau is its use against an opponents high guard.

The opponents forearms are too high to properly use a Pak Sau to break through so the double Tok Sau's are used to come underneath the opponents elbows which off balance the opponent and opens up the defence.

The way Benny Meng does it is wrong , visualize a big strong dude holding his arms up rigidly , Benny Meng is just basically getting underneath and trying to lift up the big dudes body weight.
You will not move somebody like that.

Chum Kiu theory tells us that we should be attacking with multiple force vectors at the same time , it is very difficult for an opponent to defend against more than one force vector.

So by doing the Tok Sau correctly by going up at an angle towards the opponent you are using two force vectors at once , both up and forward.
This has the effect of unbalancing the opponent and sending him back rather than using Mengs version which is basically just trying to use strength to lift the guys arms up.

In our lineage when we do this against an opponent with a high guard we also use it with a thrust kick.
The double Tok Sau's open them up and off balances them , and the thrust kick sends them on their way.

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Good points and good post

 

[wingchun100]

He does it that way because he wasn't taught properly.
The main application for the double Tok Sau is its use against an opponents high guard.

The opponents forearms are too high to properly use a Pak Sau to break through so the double Tok Sau's are used to come underneath the opponents elbows which off balance the opponent and opens up the defence.

The way Benny Meng does it is wrong , visualize a big strong dude holding his arms up rigidly , Benny Meng is just basically getting underneath and trying to lift up the big dudes body weight.
You will not move somebody like that.

Chum Kiu theory tells us that we should be attacking with multiple force vectors at the same time , it is very difficult for an opponent to defend against more than one force vector.

So by doing the Tok Sau correctly by going up at an angle towards the opponent you are using two force vectors at once , both up and forward.
This has the effect of unbalancing the opponent and sending him back rather than using Mengs version which is basically just trying to use strength to lift the guys arms up.

In our lineage when we do this against an opponent with a high guard we also use it with a thrust kick.
The double Tok Sau's open them up and off balances them , and the thrust kick sends them on their way.

That is the feeling I had. I didn't want to come off as insulting someone who has been in the wing chun game longer than I have, but it didn't seem right to me. Some might be tempted to give Benny a break and, as you pointed out, say that he was taught wrong...but when you have been in the wing chun world as long as him, you'd think by now he would have been exposed to someone else who would have said, "Hey, Benny, can you come here for a second?"

 

[mook jong man]

That is the feeling I had. I didn't want to come off as insulting someone who has been in the wing chun game longer than I have, but it didn't seem right to me. Some might be tempted to give Benny a break and, as you pointed out, say that he was taught wrong...but when you have been in the wing chun world as long as him, you'd think by now he would have been exposed to someone else who would have said, "Hey, Benny, can you come here for a second?"

Just a few quick points.

Just because he's been in it longer doesn't mean he's been taught by people who know what they are doing.
I get the impression he's a bit of a sketchy character like Australia's own William Cheung to be perfectly frank.
Many of the old masters couldn't really care less how you do your Wing Chun unless you are a student of theirs.

He also could be surrounded by sycophants who think he is fantastic , who knows the reason why he is unaware of this concept?

It is pretty simple thing to test under resistance as well , have your friend lower their arms slowly as you try to apply your Tok Sau's upwards.

They can resist your purely upward pressure with their downward force , but if you start directing your force into them as well as up at the same time you will affect their point of balance , they will start to destabilize and not be able to resist any longer.

You see the same sort of thing at work when you are doing chi sau with a master , you never quite feel as though you are stable.

You feel very wobbly with each movement of their Bong Sau / Fook Sau because your stance is under attack , they are able to keep their force continually focused at your point of balance.