Wing Chun Kickers

[Spartan]

Hey Guys,
I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but i'd like to know more about the extent of wing chun kicking.

The first thing that comes to mind, is how a wing chunner would deal w/a really strong kicker, such as those found in muay thai? I'm sure an obvious response would be to evade and get inside to trapping range. But what if your unable to get inside on the thai boxer?

Most of the wc kicking that i've seen is low level and seems deflective by nature. Does wc use any powerful kicks? What are the theories? I think i might have heard Randy Williams talk about some more advanced wc kicking concepts that might give a wing chunner an extended range.

I also remember seeing pictures of Bruce Lee in his early days in the US doing some high-flying/impressive kicking. They also said that Lee's kicks were like being hit by a freight train. Was any of this kicking based in wc, or was it due to his exposure to northern Shaolin and training w/ Chuck Norris?

Spartan

 

[CuongNhuka]

Kicking in Wing Chun is basic, and not impressive to look at.

As for how to deal with a kicker, thats easy. You can modify a Pac Sao (by turning the fingers down, and going hip level instead of chest) to defend against a kick. Or, you could do the same basic idea with a Fuk Sao and catch the kick. This is for low level. The normal Wing Chun blocks work fine at chest level. A high Pac Sao or Fuk Sao work against high kicks.

Keep in mind the defenses that I used for high and lows kicks may require slight modification. A low Pac Sao may need to 'plant' on the hip, instead of going straight. This is do to the fact that most kicks will come in to your side, the alternate is to shift out.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

It is known that Bruce Lee's kicks as they appear later were learned from Hapkido masters (search here in martial talk...).

Wing Chun kicks serve the purpose of bridging the gap, disrupting the attackers base, takedowns, and controlling distance.

As in many Southern Chinese Styles, the legs are primarily used to keep a solid base so that strikes and techniques are powerful.

Depending on who is the instructor in Wing Chun, you will be able to execute powerful, accurate kicks. Also note that many Muai Thay people, as well as high kicking TKD and similar arts people, rarely kick after they are about 35 to 45...

Most have to get hip and knee surgeries...

that is much rarer in Wing Chun... this has to do with anatomical subtleties of kicking than many, due to their athleticism, do not take into account in their technique... yet as they age... they can get hurt.

Since I had a small hip and knee injury... I've had to take these into account, because if I don't kick right, I feel it...

Yet after the injuries my kicking power has improved tremendously to the amazement of my students... and it's getting even better!

It is the result of optimizing anatomical alignment of the kicks before and after impact.

So to answer your question... yes, Wing Chun has powerful kicks, yet they are not all designed for destruction directly, as this would avoid some of the Wing Chun principles for proper structure and control of your body vs. full commitment to an action that may leave you completely misaligned.

Yet there are kicks that can double you over and even flip you...

Also, if I fight someone and am in kicking range... we're not really fighting yet (we're physically disengaged)... so we may be able to verbally diffuse the situation... or run to get more advantage or safer...

If not, then in we would have to go to fight. Here, the individuals training would be a greater factor than the skill in kicking.

Does that make sense?

Good question. I enjoyed writing an answer.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[KamonGuy2]

A lot of people are taught to deal with kicks through the use of gum sao or pak sao. This is risky.

It is possible to get away with this if you are up against low skill level martial artists who use long range kicks, but again there is still a risk that you will misjudge the position of the kick and end up breaking your wrist or fingers.

I tend to use chi gerk (sticky legs) by meeting the leg before it has gathered full momentum and then absorb the kick. When I tried kicking Master Chan, he used this and even though I am bigger than him, he managed to absorb the energy.

If you are up against a talented kicker, then the best solution is to close distance before they can use their kicks.
When I practice against my TKD training partners they hate being shut down

In streetfights, think how quickly space closes.
In all honesty the only time I have seen a kick in a real fight has been when one person has been knocked over and the other person has kicked him in.

As Master Chan says, once you get to about 25 years of age, it becomes extremely difficult to train long range kicking (ie a 50 year old will have trouble doing the splits)

 

[graychuan]

A lot of people are taught to deal with kicks through the use of gum sao or pak sao. This is risky.

It is possible to get away with this if you are up against low skill level martial artists who use long range kicks, but again there is still a risk that you will misjudge the position of the kick and end up breaking your wrist or fingers.

I tend to use chi gerk (sticky legs) by meeting the leg before it has gathered full momentum and then absorb the kick. When I tried kicking Master Chan, he used this and even though I am bigger than him, he managed to absorb the energy.

If you are up against a talented kicker, then the best solution is to close distance before they can use their kicks.
When I practice against my TKD training partners they hate being shut down

In streetfights, think how quickly space closes.
In all honesty the only time I have seen a kick in a real fight has been when one person has been knocked over and the other person has kicked him in.

As Master Chan says, once you get to about 25 years of age, it becomes extremely difficult to train long range kicking (ie a 50 year old will have trouble doing the splits)

I completely agree.
~Cg~

 

[Si-Je]

My favorite, Heel Kick!
(The lazy way to deflect a strong kicker )

Bong girk and yap girk are really cool too (hope that's the correct spelling) along with "sticky legs" stratagies.
Since I used to be a very strong kicker (until my lower back injury, aquired when constantily lifting heavy objects at work) I favor heel kicking the offending leg. Kind of an "intercepting leg" philosophy. lol!
The harder they kick the more they are hurt, and stepping into the opponent after stopping the kick completes the disruption of their balance. If you really want to get mean, you can heel kick the kicking leg then side kick the standing leg. Game over.
This being my favorite kick in an offensive manner too, for it is extremely powerful, doesn't telegraph, and fast on the draw.

Hook kick is effective as well, a bit similar to a Mui Tai leg attack. But there are alot of fun stuff to be done other than striking with this kick too. i.e. Hooking the standing or kicking leg, but that my fall in the category of "sticky legs too". But still neat technique.

Garn Sau is great too. If your fast enough to step in and keep going forward through the opponent, and pretty fun too. But not without a riskiness factor. I kinda think of it as an "oh crap" resort, in the reguard that the kicking opponent was faster than I thought and didn't get my heel or Hook kick up in time to deflect, or they kicked higher than I read.

Forward, forward, forward!! No matter what.

But to compare WC/WT kicking to other kicking arts would do injustice to both. Each are designed for different purposes in mind. And come from drastically different principles of thought in relation to fighting and defense.

As for Brucey, I read he starting kicking high after doing a movie with Chuck Norris (forgot the name of the movie, been a long time since I've seen it) and incorporated the ideal in JKD to transend and adapt as a martial artist. But I see alot of WC "concept" in his style of kicking, which can really be applied to any aspect of martial arts.

 

[CuongNhuka]

A lot of people are taught to deal with kicks through the use of gum sao or pak sao. This is risky.

I've been in sparring matches with people who are 'talented kickers', and used Pak Sao or Fuk Sao, and they work very well. By the way, sparring in Cuong Nhu is basicly full contact.

 

[Changhfy]

One thing I would have to say stemming both from a Wing Chun background as well as Bei Shaolin, TKD, Karate etc...

Its important to control and destroy the opponents center line.
Which is more a focal point of control.

There have been times that a strong kicker has thrown kicks at me and I utilized the Mo Ying Gerk at the Center reference points and was able to disrupt the opponents equilibrium and gain the upper hand in the fight.

But the Gerk Faat are incredibly viable for the Wing Chun syllabus.

The Mo Ying Gerk are important as well but its more important to understand the concepts behind them.

Chi Gerk as what was mentioned before is definitely a great way to utilize the Gerk Faat.


take care,

 

[onibaku]

I think a wing chun user can defeat a strong kicker like muay thai users. that depends on his training.


It's not the art, its the artist

 

[KamonGuy2]

I've been in sparring matches with people who are 'talented kickers', and used Pak Sao or Fuk Sao, and they work very well. By the way, sparring in Cuong Nhu is basicly full contact.

I'm sorry to disagree, but two scenarios pop up here
You were either:
a) sparring light contact with minimal contact
b) sparring with a very poor kicker

If you're telling me that you could go and use just guan sao and pak sao against a MT guy or TKD guy then you need to try it and video it or something

Pak sao and guan sao can be powerful, but you would seriously be damaging your hands if you're using it this way

 

[Si-Je]

why not?

If your quick enough, and as long as you keep going forward. Throw a tan sau in there after gan sau under the leg and shoot up and forward with it. This will make a kicker fall backwards, hard.

Remember, strong kicks are great, but your left standing on one leg when you kick. Especially the higher you kick, the more you risk balance and stability.

Akido executes a few moves in a similar manner, they just redirect in small circles to uproot the opponent.

Also realize that when you kick your supremely committed, especially high kicks. This is a weakness in any good kick or for any good kicker. You use combos to re-direct your kicking inertia and follow up with another quick attack (kick) if you miss the opponent, but if you jump in there and take away their inertia and leg, then they have nowhere to go, except down.
Once again, I think of this as an "oh crap their closer and faster than I thought" move. You feel when you do this, to anticipate and plan to do it when sparring a really good kicker is dangerous. If it's available, then do it, if not heel kick the offending leg. But whatever you do, always go forward.

 

[KamonGuy2]

It appears that people on here have not been training with people from other arts. Whenever you block or parry a kick using either an arm or leg, the person doesn't leave his leg there! They will pull back immediatley

A guan sao is a strong structure, but if a TKD or MT practitioner steps back and kicks you, you cannot use your hands

If you are still adamant that you can, my advice is to go to a local karate, TKD or MT school and ask for people to try this out on you

 

[Si-Je]

Yes darlin'.
I studied Tang Soo Do for three years as a kiddo. And was a very strong kicker. I'm very familiar with the mindset and stratagy of a kicker.
Since I started taking WC I've trained with many different stylists, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kung Do, Savate, Zipota, BJJ, MMA, etc.

I suggest that you train this move on mats so both parties can go full force without too much concern. It works, they can pull back all they want while kicking, as long as you keep going forward this it will still work.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'm sorry to disagree, but two scenarios pop up here
You were either:
a) sparring light contact with minimal contact
b) sparring with a very poor kicker

If you're telling me that you could go and use just guan sao and pak sao against a MT guy or TKD guy then you need to try it and video it or something

Pak sao and guan sao can be powerful, but you would seriously be damaging your hands if you're using it this way

Cuong Nhu sparring is bascily full contact, and she is an upper rank in Cuong Nhu, and a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. All you have to do is shift, step in, and Pac the shin.

 

[CuongNhuka]

If you are still adamant that you can, my advice is to go to a local karate, TKD or MT school and ask for people to try this out on you

Again, done that.

By the way, if they can hit you, but you cann't block that's your fault. If they are within the range to hit you, you can block it. If they step back or not.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I am sorry, but I just don't think that the people kicking you are very good kickers. No matter how much force the body can produce, you are still blocking bone with bone. The bones in the wrist would not handle a powerful kick from a good fighter

That is why you never see the UFC fighters block kicks with their hands

If you have any videos or photos of you blocking kicks, I would be interested to see them

 

[Si-Je]

You don't actually "block" a kick with your hands or arm. It's a deflection, and angle of attack more than a block. If you blocked a kick with the forearm, wrist or hand you'd get a broken arm.
You re-direct the power of their kick, like a shiver with the arms and such. Absorbing the force and making it go elsewhere from your body.
Plus shooting in, going forward with the whole body re-inforces your arms, backs up your structure. Like a bridge or a building. You must have a structure that is re-inforced to hold weight, or "power".

What's really freaky, is stepping in humbo step directly into the kick. Still freaks me out! I'm a pretty good kicker and shooting straight into a side kick or roundhouse is unnerving.
But with the humbo stepping your leg deflects the kicking leg with your leg, hip and entire body. All it is really is stance and stepping with forward force. Still takes alot of getting used to.
Oh course, backed up with chain punching and you've taken a kickers space and ability to kick you.
This took me a really long time to get the hang of coming from a strong kicking background. I had to let go of what I thought I knew to be "fact" when it came to attack and defense.

 

[marcus_p]

Hi Si-Je, I don't know what you mean by "...like a shiver with the arms and such." Can you please post or point out a clip of it being trained?

Spartan, some instructors have different opinions on Wing Chun Kicks. I don't know who is correct, but must keep an open mind to see what's out there. In my school, we are taught that there are 8 kicks in Wing Chun classified by how they they generate power. There are exercises, and wooden devices designed to aid in the development of these kicks, the tri-poles among them.

You can see examples of these kicks in our school's videos on youTUBE. Here is one circle training where the defender employs some of the kicks in his practice. These clips are for your consideration, to show how we approach the art.

/Marcus

 

[Spartan]

Sweet clips dude. Thanks Marcus.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I am sorry, but I just don't think that the people kicking you are very good kickers. No matter how much force the body can produce, you are still blocking bone with bone. The bones in the wrist would not handle a powerful kick from a good fighter

That is why you never see the UFC fighters block kicks with their hands

If you have any videos or photos of you blocking kicks, I would be interested to see them

Two thoughts that come to mind. 1, You block a punch 'bone to bone', so isn't blocking as a concept a bad idea?

2, You never see Wing Chun in UFC. So, if blocking with your hands is a bad idea, wouldn't that mean you just said that training in Wing Chun is a bad idea?

Just thoughts