Wing Chun and Improv

Spartan

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One thing I'm curious about is wing chun's improvisation aspects. All the moves that I normally see are from the frontal attack/defense ready positions.

While I'm aware that this is where many fights begin, what about those unfortunate times when one finds themself grabbed from behind, sucker punched from the side or rear, or grabbed on the collar when they're sitting down?

I know I bring it up often, but I must say that kenpo karate seems to have some very paractical solutions to these dilemmas. I believe this is due to the jujitsu/ chin na element that exists within kenpo.

I do want to clarify that I'm not saying that wing chun has no solutions to such problems; I'm stating that I've not yet seen moves that address these areas.

Does wing chun have a substantial chin na element? I remember hearing Randy Williams talk about a rarely practiced ground fighting element to the art.

Could someone inform me?

Thanks,
Spartan
 

almost a ghost

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what about those unfortunate times when one finds themself grabbed from behind, sucker punched from the side or rear, or grabbed on the collar when they're sitting down?

The biggest thing about these attacks is that you don't see them coming.

Someone grabs you from behind: Could you get more descriptive? Neck? Headlock? Bear hug?

Sucker punched: The reason they call it a sucker punch is that you don't see it coming, it just happens, hence the name, if you are still standing after that then just start punching.

Collar grab from behind while sitting down: I've only seen grade school teachers do that one LOL. I'd have to see this one in person... or on youtube LOL.

I did kempo for 5 years, and yeah, I was taught techniques on how to get out of them, of course they only worked because the "attacker" was not fully committing to the attack and the would stop after the initial grab, more importantly because you knew the "sneak" attack was coming.
 

Seeker

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It is my understanding that the turning lan sau found in Chum Kiu is intended for those types of situations where you are grabbed, approached from behind or to the side.

And I'm sure Bui Gee is full of stuff like this; but I wouldn't know as I haven't even seen the entire form yet.
 

geezer

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It is my understanding that the turning lan sau found in Chum Kiu is intended for those types of situations where you are grabbed, approached from behind or to the side.

And I'm sure Bui Gee is full of stuff like this; but I wouldn't know as I haven't even seen the entire form yet.

You are correct sir! But the different sub-styles of WC/WT train differently for these specialized "self defense" situations. Nevertheless, most of the instructors I've met have considerable experience in this area, regardless of which lineage they're from. It's a good question to ask when choosing a school.
 

KamonGuy2

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Yes chin na does exist in wing chun but I have found that it doesn't really work as well as other grappling concepts

The problems you have described won't really be prevented but you should be able to react well.

Your martial arts is always evolving and dealing with more complicated issues. When you started, you probably dealt with slow straight punches coming at you. Then you built it up to deal with any punch going slow at yiou. Then the speed/power increased. Over time you might have dealt with clinches and kicks, until eventually you start dealing with all sorts of attacks

I have been in situations sitting in a bar and have been punched completely out of the blue by a guy who thought I was eyeing up his girlfriend. Things like that happen. if you don't deal with it, it doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad martial artist. Just like if you didn't deal with a bullet coming at you wouldn't make you a bad martial artist!!
 

graychuan

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It is my understanding that the turning lan sau found in Chum Kiu is intended for those types of situations where you are grabbed, approached from behind or to the side.

And I'm sure Bui Gee is full of stuff like this; but I wouldn't know as I haven't even seen the entire form yet.


Right On! , Seeker. The Fak/Fok Sao is also an option and its also in the Chum Kiu.
 

profesormental

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Greetings.

The Chin Na aspects of Wing Chun are completely dependent upon the individual instructors knowledge.

Some instructors have it and others don't. As with anything else.

Even from Sil Lum Tao up to the Wooden Dummy form, it is filled with Chin Na applications and counters to Chin Na manipulations. Biu Jee has lots of applications to regain your structure when it is taken away... that is it's most important theme!

Wing Chun does have a ground fighting application and training, yet it is not normally about horizontal position dominance. If you do the positional dominance game that is the game for wrestling and Jujitsu. It is more about regaining you feet and fight from good vertical posture for defense, escape and power.

Of course, wrestling can be added and use the Wing Chun training in that venue, yet the training is different.

Once you are comfortable about your skills in you personal physical space, an then with a training partner, scenario training and drill should be added to take account for self defense type situations.

In the 70's in NY it was called "making Wing Chun work on the streets". Not a unique phenomena, just my lineage.

Once the Wing Chun is learned and the training is more unconscious in execution, you can take into account the Environment; the factors that affect the situation internally (physically), mentally and outside the body.

In the forms and the insight of a qualified instructor and your personal practice you can find the answers and train for them. Interestingly, I use the American Kenpo Practice Combat Scenarios (i.e. Self defense techniques... yet adding the environment... most are Reactionary in nature... "surprise" attacks ) with the Wing Chun Strategic Offensive Methods.

It is a very well organized way to study self defense type scenarios, yet it is not unique. I've noticed that the Wing Chun training trains my body "internally"... I have a certain structure that makes every movement that much more powerful... and a certain "flow" and perception of the control I can have on an attacker...

And quick and decisive action is taken because of the Chi sao drills as applied to the scenarios.

Yet I recommend to really focus on doing things as perfectly as possible and maximum body control until the Chum Kiu level... that way your body knows how strong and good it feels to have strong powerful structure and can easily and unconsciously come back to it if it is taken away. Here Biu Jee comes in and the Dummy training and manipulations can be executed with full effectiveness and efficiency, and the counter manipulations can be executed naturally.

Hope this helps.


Juan M. Mercado
 

geezer

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Greetings.

The Chin Na aspects of Wing Chun are completely dependent upon the individual instructors knowledge.Some instructors have it and others don't. As with anything else.
Even from Sil Lum Tao up to the Wooden Dummy form, it is filled with Chin Na applications and counters to Chin Na manipulations. Biu Jee has lots of applications to regain your structure when it is taken away... that is it's most important theme!
Wing Chun does have a ground fighting application and training, yet it is not normally about horizontal position dominance. If you do the positional dominance game that is the game for wrestling and Jujitsu. It is more about regaining you feet and fight from good vertical posture for defense, escape and power.
Juan M. Mercado

My original Sifu, a Yip Man disciple, always insisted that Wing Chun/Tsun was a complete art, with striking, locking and grappling, and ground fighting techniques. He would also say that if you really understood Wing Chun/Tsun, you could move in many ways, and even look like other styles, and still be doing Wing Chun/Tsun. It is a matter of applying the principles, not a matter of appearance. Unfortunately, as you say, some sifus know these applications, some don't. Those who don't often cover up by insisting that Wing Chun must be very narrowly defined. When I was teaching, I also had limited expertise. But, I never claimed to know it all, and my students respected my honesty and the skills I did have. If people realized how thorough an art Wing Chun can be, they would not make some of the disparaging and ignorant comments you see popping up.
 

profesormental

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Greetings.

I agree with your Si Fu, Mr. Geezer. Yet I think it is as much about the concepts and principles and about the structure and optimization that Wing Chun training brings to the execution of your martial movements, and how you train these in martial applications.

The principles are more of strategies that are used for combat. Yet the edge that I see that good Wing Chun has is more like having better technology to apply those strategies with... optimized body mechanics and dynamics.

These are taught with forms and drills.

Now, applying those optimizations and strategies to horizontal applications can be done, yet the strategy of positional dominance and going for immobilization and/or submission is NOT the strategy of Wing Chun.

Yet, as Sun Tzu wrote in the Art of War, I paraphrase, if you go to battle knowing yourself and your opponent, you can fight with confidence of winning. If you know only yourself, you can go with caution. If you don't know yourself or your opponent, then you are at great disadvantage.

Hope this heps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado
 

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