Why?

[MJS]

Lately, while surfing this forum, as well as others, I find myself asking why....why do people find it necessary to run out and create their own martial art? Is it some childhood fantasy that they want to live out, by training in a bunch of arts, toss some mumbo-jumbo together and feel they're the next Bruce Lee? Do they want some sort of status, or feeling?

I have to wonder....how much training do these people actually do? Do they train 5 arts for 3 mos. each, run out, toss stuff from each art together and call it something? Do they feel they're offering people something that they're not getting elsewhere?

I've been training for over 20yrs. Kenpo is my base art. I also actively train in Arnis. I enjoy BJJ, although its been a while since I've been on the mat. I do teach from time to time, and yes, there are times when, during a Kenpo class, I'll toss in some Arnis, just to a) give people a taste of something else, and b) because at the school where I train, some of the Arnis basics are required at the upper levels. I make it clear what I'm teaching, so as to not misrepresent, and have people think that this stick drill is Kenpo, when it isn't.

Many times, while doing techniques, in a spontaneous reaction drill setting, I'll find myself doing some Arnis mixed with the Kenpo. I may start off with a Kenpo tech., but end with an Arnis lock. Nothing wrong with that. I say that, because I've devoted many years to Arnis as well.

What I do not do though, is take my years of training, mix a little of that, a pinch of this, an ounce of that, blend it all together, pop it in the over for an hour, and WA-LA...a 'new' art. Personally, I have zero desire to be some made up GM, Soke or any other title. I have no desire to make people go "ohhh and ahh" at my 'new' creation. Every class that I go to, regardless of what art it is, I find myself learning something new. I do not claim to know it all.

If we think about it, there are so many arts out there. Many branches of the FMAs, various Kung Fu branches, Kenpo, Kempo, Kaju, TaiChi, grappling.....the list goes on and on and on. So if we see all of this, it raises the question....why...why is it necessary for someone to run out and try to craft something when there're countless, already proven systems out there?

Some will say, "Well, if these people created their own thing, why can't I?" IMO, the answer, or at least one answer is...because these people have tested their art over time, and have proven it. I highly doubt that the people running around today, the shake 'n bake, pop in the oven, new founding father of X art, has done any of that.

So...enough rambling from me. What are your thoughts?

 

[Ken Morgan]

This holds very true for those of us in the sword arts. It is amazing how many people feel that after a couple of MA movies and six months of karate class they are the modern incarnation of Musashi. There is nothing more frustrating then watching some half wit show up on YouTube, spinning a sword like a baton, having no balance, cutting wrong, and then deciding it would be super cool to do a public demo cutting a cucumber off of someone’s neck.

There are only so many ways to use a sword. Why would you need to create your own art, when all the existing arts have everything you would ever need?

 

[MJS]

This holds very true for those of us in the sword arts. It is amazing how many people feel that after a couple of MA movies and six months of karate class they are the modern incarnation of Musashi. There is nothing more frustrating then watching some half wit show up on YouTube, spinning a sword like a baton, having no balance, cutting wrong, and then deciding it would be super cool to do a public demo cutting a cucumber off of someone’s neck.

There are only so many ways to use a sword. Why would you need to create your own art, when all the existing arts have everything you would ever need?

Good points. I mean, if you look at these people they're all saying the same thing....that its something new. Much of what we're seeing can be found in many other arts already, so how is it new?

 

[Xue Sheng]

MJS

I wish I knew but I have no idea why so many feel the need to create their own style these days other than marketing or lack of understanding of the multiple styles they have trained for a couple of months, if that. And it is possible that some have extensive background training and good reasons for developing thier own style, but not most IMO.

And historically there have been people that created legitimate new styles from time to time; Ueshiba Morihei, Kano Jigoro, Wang Xiangzhai, Lee Jun Fan, Yang Luchan, etc. But look at the backgrounds that these people had prior to coming up with their own style and their reasons for creating a new style. It sure as heck was longer than a month or two and a better reason than just cause

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I can do it better

That stuff I can't figure out isn't important so I'll make an art without it because only what I can grasp is of any use

Passed over for promotion? How dare they not see my greatness. I'll show them and make my own art.



I think that covers 95%.

The other 5% is innovation, true creation, and experience.

IMO.

 

[MJS]

MJS

I wish I knew but I have no idea why so many feel the need to create their own style these days other than marketing or lack of understanding of the multiple styles they have trained for a couple of months, if that. And it is possible that some have extensive background training and good reasons for developing thier own style, but not most IMO.

And historically there have been people that created legitimate new styles from time to time; Ueshiba Morihei, Kano Jigoro, Wang Xiangzhai, Lee Jun Fan, Yang Luchan, etc. But look at the backgrounds that these people had prior to coming up with their own style and their reasons for creating a new style. It sure as heck was longer than a month or two and a better reason than just cause

Couldn't agree more. Sure, I could say that I make *my* Kenpo my own, but really, its nothing more than the way that *I* do a technique. My teacher does things with his unique flavor, but we're still training the same Kenpo. Even after 20 more yrs, God willing, I'll still be training, I dont think that I'd have the guts to go out and create my own system.

No thanks...I'll just keep training and learning.

 

[bluekey88]

It seems to me that many of the founders of "legitimate" arts did not set out to create anything. They started training in something else...passionately. As they grew and developed, their personal style started to divereg from the source. Over time, this either led to a variation in a style or to something "new". In the end, their goal was not to be a founder, but just be a good martial artist...the founder thing seems less contrived.

My guess is that if you start out trying to create an art....you've already screwed the pooch.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Xue Sheng]

Couldn't agree more. Sure, I could say that I make *my* Kenpo my own, but really, its nothing more than the way that *I* do a technique. My teacher does things with his unique flavor, but we're still training the same Kenpo. Even after 20 more yrs, God willing, I'll still be training, I dont think that I'd have the guts to go out and create my own system.

No thanks...I'll just keep training and learning.

Pretty much like my Sifu says

His taiji is not exactly the same as his Sifu’s taiji and mine is not exactly like his, how can it be, we are different people with different body types and different experiences. But we still all do the same style of taiji with the same basic principles.

 

[still learning]

It seems to me that many of the founders of "legitimate" arts did not set out to create anything. They started training in something else...passionately. As they grew and developed, their personal style started to divereg from the source. Over time, this either led to a variation in a style or to something "new". In the end, their goal was not to be a founder, but just be a good martial artist...the founder thing seems less contrived.

My guess is that if you start out trying to create an art....you've already screwed the pooch.

Peace,
Erik

Hello, This seems so true for the past ...

Today? ....becoming a little bit..more confusing...

Aloha, 3D television are now been made for the Homes.....3D training? UM!

 

[xJOHNx]

Sometimes it comes down to rudimentary other beliefs. A conviction that a system needs to be taught in a other way. This is what I could grasp from the Genbukan/Jinenkan split off from Bujinkan. I could be wrong though.

Or some people see the shortcomings of one art and decide to search for something to complement/add and progress with it. If they are genuine with it, it could be a solid system. But problems will arise when you keep it under an existing name. Because for most styles the name covers the load, all the techniques are known and have been categorised. So a sudden new technique could give problems. Other clubs don't know it, the GM doesn't know about it and so on. Problems!

Apart from that, there are probably alot of phonies too, getting their ego's petted.

 

[Omar B]

It's a lot of ego I think in many cases. The "I can do it better" idea or the "there's too much unessesary fluff" mindset. Many new arts I've seen are not real improvements or evolutions of older arts. They come off as stripped versions. Not to disrespect, but Combat Hapkido comes to mind, it's stripped to bare bones and simplified, but all that's in there is stuff you would learn already, the shorter, more efficient movements employed are something any Hapkidoka would figure out after learning how to apply the longer forms (that are taught that way to instill proper form and movment).

There's also the combatives side where there's a small, compact syllabus to learn that's cobbled together from different styles. All the movements are worthy but as a whole they don't flow together. I've seen it a couple times where they teach "stance X" with "kick y," both great moves themselves, except that the width of the stance or the angle of the kick brings them in complete contention and executing them together would leave you on your butt.

I've been between Seido and Kyokushin karate my whole life and they are pretty much the same. I've got no plans on changing anything whatsoever.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Do you mean a whole new martial art or just a school with a new name?

When we parted ways with our old Sensei, we could no longer use the name of the art without having to play stupid legal games.

In addition we were bringing in things from our past and present training in other arts in systems.

Therefore a new system was born from the old.
We have everything from the old plus more.

We are not claiming to hold the universal truth, just "This is what we have found works well from our collected training."

It be worse to keep the old name when we are adding things to it.

Sure there is alot of " I have created the grand ultimate system!" bunk out there. But new styles are formed all the time becaus we have so much blending and crosstraining going on in the west.

If you look at Asia, alot of the
"Traditional" martial arts were founded much the same way.
Someone would study at one school and then move on or be asked to train withsomeone else, after many years the blend of their pasrt made something new in the way that a song is new but contains elements from many that came before.

If I ruffle feathers by starting a new school and calling what we do Armatura Jujutsu instead of Icho Yama Ryu AIki Jujutsu and Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, then too bad.

We were not going to take our 4th dans and burn them and not continue to train with the great group of people we had been training with and wanted to train with us instead of leaving with the old Instructor.

I would have stayed with him forever if so many damn issues did not keep coming up and negativly effecting a Dojo I had giving over 10 years to and alot of sacrifice for.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It seems to me that many of the founders of "legitimate" arts did not set out to create anything. They started training in something else...passionately. As they grew and developed, their personal style started to diverge from the source. Over time, this either led to a variation in a style or to something "new". In the end, their goal was not to be a founder, but just be a good martial artist...the founder thing seems less contrived.

My guess is that if you start out trying to create an art....you've already screwed the pooch.

Peace,
Erik

I think Erik that you in many cases are right. I know in my specific instance I started training in two styles roughly thirty years ago. In time I was also training religiously in a couple more. Eventually over time while teaching I could simply no longer say I taught style X because what I was teaching had too much influence from other avenues of training. So I had to go and create a frame work that allowed me to utilize divergent training so that it would creatively work together. (ie. weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping hands and joint manipulation and grappling) For myself at least it is more efficient to train/teach this way as opposed to teaching several systems/styles. (for me that would be confusing :erg Still in the end I am just like everyone else a practitioner of martial science training every day and striving to be better. (that includes training and learning from as many people as possible) In the end that is what we are all doing.

 

[MJS]

Sometimes it comes down to rudimentary other beliefs. A conviction that a system needs to be taught in a other way. This is what I could grasp from the Genbukan/Jinenkan split off from Bujinkan. I could be wrong though.

Of course, if we look at the founders of those systems, ie: Jinenkan and Genbukan, I'd say they're in a class by themselves. In other words, both men are more than accomplished and IMO would not be considered average Joes.

Or some people see the shortcomings of one art and decide to search for something to complement/add and progress with it. If they are genuine with it, it could be a solid system. But problems will arise when you keep it under an existing name. Because for most styles the name covers the load, all the techniques are known and have been categorised. So a sudden new technique could give problems. Other clubs don't know it, the GM doesn't know about it and so on. Problems!

Well, IMO, just because there may be a shortcoming, doesnt mean you have to create something new. For example...I cross train in BJJ to supplement the lack of groundfighting in Kenpo. I still train Kenpo though, and use the BJJ knowledge to aid in my Kenpo takedown defenses.

Apart from that, there are probably alot of phonies too, getting their ego's petted.

Absolutely! Good post!

 

[MJS]

Do you mean a whole new martial art or just a school with a new name?

When we parted ways with our old Sensei, we could no longer use the name of the art without having to play stupid legal games.

In addition we were bringing in things from our past and present training in other arts in systems.

Therefore a new system was born from the old.
We have everything from the old plus more.

We are not claiming to hold the universal truth, just "This is what we have found works well from our collected training."

It be worse to keep the old name when we are adding things to it.

Sure there is alot of " I have created the grand ultimate system!" bunk out there. But new styles are formed all the time becaus we have so much blending and crosstraining going on in the west.

If you look at Asia, alot of the
"Traditional" martial arts were founded much the same way.
Someone would study at one school and then move on or be asked to train withsomeone else, after many years the blend of their pasrt made something new in the way that a song is new but contains elements from many that came before.

If I ruffle feathers by starting a new school and calling what we do Armatura Jujutsu instead of Icho Yama Ryu AIki Jujutsu and Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, then too bad.

We were not going to take our 4th dans and burn them and not continue to train with the great group of people we had been training with and wanted to train with us instead of leaving with the old Instructor.

I would have stayed with him forever if so many damn issues did not keep coming up and negativly effecting a Dojo I had giving over 10 years to and alot of sacrifice for.

No, I'm not talking about changing the name of the school, I'm talking about making a new system altogether. A 20 or 21yo guy trains in a few arts, but feels the need to craft something that is somehow new and never before seen.

Changing the name of the school...nothing wrong with that. Ex: If I were part of Larry Tatums group, and had a falling out with him and broke away, I'm still teaching Kenpo, just no longer affiliated with Tatum.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Of course, if we look at the founders of those systems, ie: Jinenkan and Genbukan, I'd say they're in a class by themselves. In other words, both men are more than accomplished and IMO would not be considered average Joes.

They are both absolutely fantastic at what they do.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Not sure if I am even qualified to answer the original question or not, but here goes:
People with little knowledge and big egos are always wanting to on top of the heap.

People with much knowledge and little ego may leave there old organizations because of political turmoil within the organization

Now in case number one it would seem that the creator of the “new” system is just bilking the public and making him/her self seem more important

In the 2nd I believe the “new” system may simply be the old system with some few (or many) things added which the head has learned over many, many years. His starting his own system may not have been a goal he sought or ever wanted but by desiccate started. Most of the time these instructors will stick to the core of material they always enjoyed doing and will even credit those that taught them, explaining what techniques come from where and how they work or do not work with other techniques

 

[sfs982000]

It seems like wayyyyy too many of these so called masters just need to have their egos stroked. Change a few movements in an already existing form set and claim it as their own and there you have it a brand new style with a 10th degree Grandmaster. They should just be happy being upright, breathing and bettering themselves as a martial artist.

 

[xJOHNx]

I should have put, the possible shortcomings of some art.
Other arts can contribute, that's a truth! Some styles have evolved and experimented in other ways, with other points of view and this can help us as a supplement you could say

What I mean is: for a second bear with me that I'll some day archieve BB and Dojo-Cho in Jinenkan. Now if I started to add some thaiboxing things: like clinch and the famous low kick, together with some punch-elbow combinations. I don't think it would be good if I would still call it Jinenkan. It wouldn't be right, because they are not a part of Jinenkan curricullum. Because of my respect towards my teachers and Manaka Sensei I would just give it another name (knowing myself, something flashy like Ultimate Dragon Art of Ancient Dawns).
Sure I could give it as an extra class or something. Or just a outside Ryu. But then I would discredit the system in which I study. Would it be a complete new system? No, just some outside elements, but I wouldn't feel good about it using it under the Jinenkan banner.

But yeah, I understand what you mean when you say that people study a system or 4 and than give it an own name. I was just thinking about this when I was boarding public transportation. The ease by which people's ego's are petted is amazing!

Of course, if we look at the founders of those systems, ie: Jinenkan and Genbukan, I'd say they're in a class by themselves. In other words, both men are more than accomplished and IMO would not be considered average Joes.

So true. If they were average Joe's, bar fights would have a whole new dimension of entertainment.

 

[Omar B]

You make a good point John. People think that because a style lacks this or that they've got to give it this huge overhaul. No style's complete. In Seido and Kyokushin we are encouraged to also study Judo and they mesh very well together. It does not mean one or the other are lacking, it just means that separate styles can be complimentary and you don't have to completely wreck two established styles to create an incomplete child.