"Whether the will is completely free ?????"

[Bushigokoro9]

I have a question for those out there who care to answer.

Is a person's will free? Completely free, to do what it is that they undertake to do?

"Is a person's will free to undertake any of those things that they do not undertake and whether they are free not to undertake any of those things they do undertake?"


yes or no and why???????

Best Regards,
Bushigokoro

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Ofcourse not, not 100% at least. We are subject to always follow certain patterns in our psyche, and human nature will almost always prevail. So while we think that what we are doing is in free will, in fact, we have limits put on ourselves by our mental nature. You can say "I will go eat because I want to" but what causes you to go eat?

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Ofcourse not, not 100% at least. We are subject to always follow certain patterns in our psyche, and human nature will almost always prevail. So while we think that what we are doing is in free will, in fact, we have limits put on ourselves by our mental nature. You can say "I will go eat because I want to" but what causes you to go eat?

Yes, but am I free to not to eat even when I am conditioned or motivated to eat?????

I will go now and blow soap bubbles through my pipe now. I contemplate my free will on not eating as I sit here and starve. Hee Hee

Best Regards,
Bushigokoro

 

[someguy]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12437&page=1&pp=15
That ties in pretty well here.
Maybe we are free and bound by fate at the same time so yes we are 100% free yet we aren't.
NOw if we say there is no fate due to a higher being then still I say there is no 100% free free will.
There are about 6 billion people out there in the world right now. No fully controls everything and as such you are controled to some extent or another.

 

[loki09789]

We are as free as we are able to imagine and decide to do something or not. We are also limited by natural laws of inherited traits and so on.

I can have to will to lift a car over my head, and I am free to try or not try, but the laws of nature will limit how successful the outcome will be.

I can imagine murders, rapes, get rich quick schemes.... anything under the sun and I am 'free' to do or not do them - as long as I consciously take ownership of my choice. I am constantly battling with my future in-laws programming of my fiance that "they" made me made, or "he" pissed me off. Because she is not always conscious of her power to choose, she is not 'free' and subject to others influence (fate, higher power, authority figures - real or not).

Also there is emotion. If a person has a tendency to be 'emotional' or 'impulsive' they are a 'slave to their primal self' according this logic and not free because they, either because of genetics (ADD/ADHD) or learning (Mom threw fits, Dad punched walls...).

Internal and external nature, culture...prior experience will influence a person's perception of free will and self determination but that doesn't mean that any one of these factors are the limiting factor. It is perception that either opens or closes potential. Consider Steven Hawkings (sp?), he could percieve himself as not free because of physical limits, but he has not.

As my 9th grade English teacher was so fond of saying: You can either accept the reality of the circumstances or reject it. Those who accept reality usually are rejected by reality. Those who accept reality are usually nurtured/embraced by it. This does not mean 'settling' and giving up dreams, but by looking deeply and seeing the totallity of reality, you are free to do things more so than those who only see what they want to see (racism, blind ambition,...)

 

[tsunami]

Your will is completely free. However, break man's laws and soon you will not be.

George

 

[bignick]

you can override your self-preservation instincts...people have starved themselves to death...remember the monks that lit themselves on fire and just sat there burning...

 

[TonyM.]

I'm pretty sure the will is free. Hold on while I ask my wife.

 

[Bushigokoro9]

"I'm pretty sure the will is free. Hold on while I ask my wife."

well said!!!!

 

[SMP]

I would believe in free will if some one can prove that we are able to be altruistic.

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Etymology: French altruisme, from autrui other people, from Old French, oblique case form of autre other, from Latin alter
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species
- al·tru·ist /-tru-ist/ noun
- al·tru·is·tic /"al-tru-'is-tik/ adjective
- al·tru·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

In either case 1 or 2 I do not see the relationship of being altruistic and believing in or not believing in having free will. I am curious to your response please explain?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i read your first post and sat thinking about what exactly you were asking.
this topic of conversation has come up many times in my household, the dojo, school....you name it.
are you asking if we are bound to make the choices we do? by "bound", i mean, while we are given options, were we simply predetermined to make the one we did?
even as options present themselves to you through your daily life.....you're given option A and option B, normally you are an option A person....but you decide to go with B....did you really have a choice? or was it simply predestined.
are we puppets in a play?
tough to say......its one hell of a cruel joke on us if thats the way it is though.

shawn

 

[Bushigokoro9]

I am not asking about "actus voluntatis imperatus" but instead "actus voluntais elicitus"

It is not "Do we ever bring about the things we intend to bring about" But instead "Are we free to will the things that we do will"

If so or if not please explain?


Best Regards

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Just one note: If it sounds that I am being smug or looking for a debate that is not my intent. I am truly curious to people’s thoughts and explanations to this question. For I myself seem to waffle back and forth on some of the aspects every time I examine it.

 

[SMP]

Many Philosophers have argued that we as man (not trying to be sexist) are unable to be altruistic. So if I have free will I would be able to 1 : have unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
or 2 : have behavior that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to myself but that benefits others.
If I do not have free will then all my actions are dictated by a benefit that I recieve. The choice is dictated by benefit not by will.
If we can truely be altruistic then I would believe in free will.

 

[MA-Caver]

Choice, free-will, free agency. It's been said that is God's greatest gift to man. Where-as; according to legend/myth/doctrine Satan wanted MAN not to have any choice but to worship the Father. Jesus said " let man choose for himself."
For that I am grateful that I have the where-withall to choose whatever I so desire and by my experience, knowledge and common sense will continue to do so even if it may not be the brightest thing I've done. If we are not free to choose then we would not learn by experience.
A child will choose to touch that bright red thingy that mom cooks dinner on and end up burn... if they're intelligent they'll not do it again. Or they can choose to listen to the parent that catches them in time and pulls their hand back and says no-no that's hot, it'll burn you.
We see a wallet laying on the ground and can spy a few ten dollar bills sticking out of it. We can choose to pick up the wallet and then face a myriad of choices. Keep the wallet, keep the money-toss the wallet, find the owner, etc. etc.
Our values, morals, standards, experiences and intelligence will help dictate our choices as we go through this life. It has been said that we average about 3000 choices every single day. Many of them are subconcious choices based on the values, morals, standards, etc. we have. Many choices are from our own base instincts (also on the level of the subconcious). Many choices are from concious decisions and emotional reactions based on past experiences. Still many others are from impulses and how much control we have over them.
But yeah, all our choices/free will decisions are free. A terrified person pointing a loaded gun towards a savage, with intent to kill attacker; still makes the choice to pull the trigger or not. We can just as easily motivated by fear NOT do do anything as well as to respond. It is a choice.
Some will say well, maybe the person is just too terrified to do anything. That is because they chose (subconciously based on their experiences and control of impulses) to be terrified.
Consenquences? Well it's always present. They're always going to be either good or bad. We'll never know for sure until we experience them. That has been one of the oldest catch-22's known to man. We cannot experience anything without consenquences and we cannot have consensquences without (choosing to) have (that particular) experience.
And like so many Darwin Award winners and nominees we can and do choose whether or not to learn from those experiences.
:asian:

Freewill by: Rush

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned,
Or the gods are malign..."
Blame is better to give than receive.

Chorus
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them; they weren't born in Lotusland.

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.

Chorus

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.

Chorus

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Please let me know if I correctly understand your logic? I listed your explanation below in a symbolic logic outline but I do not want to assume any premises. I copied your response and broke the main reasons into symbolic logic below. Please correct these if I have misinterpreted anything.

Best Regards


“Many Philosophers have argued that we as man (not trying to be sexist) are unable to be altruistic. So if I have free will I would be able to 1 : have unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others or 2 : have behavior that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to myself but that benefits others. If I do not have free will then all my actions are dictated by a benefit that I recieve. The choice is dictated by benefit not by will.
If we can truely be altruistic then I would believe in free will.”





So to begin…

If A then (B and C)
If (B and C) then D
Therefore/ If A then D?


Moving on this premise…

If ~ A then (B and ~C) or is it If ~A then (~B and ~C) ?????
If E then (~B and ~C)
If E then ~ D
Therefore / If E then ~ A


A = have free will
B = having unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
C = behavior that is not beneficial to be harmful to myself but that benefits others
D = altruistic
E = mankind
~ Means not

Do I correctly understand your viewpoint?

 

[SMP]

Yes, that is the breakdown that I used but if man can be alturistic then I could see a argument fot freewill.

Great breakdown by the way.

 

[Ray]

you can override your self-preservation ...remember the monks that lit themselves on fire and just sat there burning...

Last time I did that, I ran around screaming and flailing...I utimatley decided it was a bad idea.

 

[Skankatron Ltd]

Ready for the bombshell?
We choose our fate.
That makes us 100% bound and yet 100% free.