When do the frauds come out?

[Gentle Fist]

After seeing some of these ridiculous internet soke boards and individuals that have posted here in the past (Bruce C), I have a question to throw out to the members of this board....

When do most of these frauds start making false claims. Does it start once they receive a legit black belt or is it well before even that?

My guess would be the majority start before even dan rank...

What are your thoughts?

 

[Kacey]

After seeing some of these ridiculous internet soke boards and individuals that have posted here in the past (Bruce C), I have a question to throw out to the members of this board....

When do most of these frauds start making false claims. Does it start once they receive a legit black belt or is it well before even that?

My guess would be the majority start before even dan rank...

What are your thoughts?

I think it varies; some people are frauds from before they start, and their instructors don't catch them in time (or don't notice they aren't picking up the moral component, or don't teach it); some becme frauds as they gain rank and physical ability, and think there is nothing else to MA but that. Others become frauds when they discover they can make money. I don't think there's a single correct answer - it depends on the person's circumstances and background.

 

[terryl965]

I would suspect fruad come early on in one training, even if they really have no training.I just can't see someone training for 3-4 years and then just become a fruad over night. Just my 2 cents worth.
Terry

 

[evenflow1121]

I think some people like to believe what they want even though deep down inside themselves they know they are utter liars. I think it lies within the character of the person. I mean you can have a guy coming out of a black belt mill where he gets his bb in a year or so and all of a sudden apply for one of these crazy organizations and become a Grandmaster of his own system. Or you can have people with very little to no training at all claim that they hold high ranks from very shady styles or organizations that would be very hard to prove or disprove. However, I would have to say that most of the fraud probably occurs before dan rank. In an average school it would take a while for you to reach shodan which means atleast there is a greater chance that the individual acquires some respect for the system if he or she reaches that level.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

First of all, as others have said, I don't think they turn into frauds overnight - it is an integral part of their character that emerges at some point to the extent that the well informed and observant can see.

Two things motivate frauds, IMO; money and status. At some point the person with a character defect realizes one of two things (or both): one; there is no central governing body or standards for setting up a school or promoting (even one's self) to senior black belt rank, two; there is money to be made in the martial arts if a person plays their cards right and is motivated by financial considerations.

 

[MJS]

I'd have to say that it depends on the person. This can be something that is pre-determined or something that happens after they've begun their training. Some people, it should be quite obvious, while others, they seem to have mastered the art of deceiving people.

Mike

 

[BlackCatBonz]

for some people, being fraudulent is a way of life.......from their fake PhD's to their fake medal of honor to their fake 10th degree black belts. they make a life out of screwing others over......these are the worst kind of soke's or grandmasters. i imagine they did it with very little thought of how much hurt they were doing to others......they just wanted some notariety.
it happens less now because people arent as gullible about martial arts anymore.....and with the internet making the world smaller, makes it pretty easy to find the people that crap in their own backyard.

 

[Sin]

Are we talking about someone who is a fraud on the forums and says they've trained, and are liying about it, or are we speaking of someone who starts a school similer to the Napoleon Dynamite's Rex-Kwon Do.

In either case, it usaually is apparent if anyone has had any training on the forums, and in real life, and your just starting out, be smart about it...just shop around and see whats up...Frauds should just be left alone, there shouldn't be a vendetta aginst them, because they're not doing anything Illegal, unless they are using copyrighted material, and or they're starting Dojo wars and such. Then you can just call the police...

 

[Henderson]

Napoleon Dynamite's Rex-Kwon Do

Don't forget about the secret ninja moves from the government! :ultracool

 

[searcher]

AS soon as they open their mouth. This is right after the say,"Hi, my name is__________, and I am the instructor here."

 

[Sin]

Yeah, you can kinda get a feel for who is and isn't entirely truthful about there training...Or they are completly dilusional...

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator Note:

Thread moved to Horror Stories. - G Ketchmark / shesulsa, MT Moderator

 

[Kreth]

I think that it's a personality type, and you will have frauds from the newbie level, all the way up to the self-styled grandmasters (many of whom are also newbies).
I got paired with a new student once during a grappling class. He told me not to take it easy on him during sparring, as he was a "streetfighter." His technique was so sloppy that I didn't even bother trying to escape his guard, and choked him out with hon jime while he tried desperately to fend me off with a weak do jime.

 

[Don Roley]

I have run across a lot of frauds in my time on the internet. I have come up with the conclusion that they are pretty much born that way.

There are just certain people that want attention. Money may be a factor, but there are easier ways of bilking people out of money through various scams.

Wanting attention is not bad in itself. All the Olympic athletes do so for the chance to be known to the world as the best. Bruce Lee, Charlie Chaplin... the names of people you know are probably mainly those that wanted to be known by others.

The thing is, all of them worked damn hard to get to a place where they had a lot of attention paid to them.

I do not believe that many frauds start out on good footing. Kreth's story of how he got teamed up with a guy who wanted to impress him by dropping the fact that he was a street fighter is a perfect example. It starts with small stories, and then the lies get bigger and bigger and the person gets wrapped up more and more in keeping the image alive.

People like Kreth's streetfighter may train for a while, but soon find they are not doing as well as they want people to think. That is when they make the full break to outright fraud.

Take a look at most frauds and you will see deception revolving around making themselves look good in a variety of manners. Find someone who has lied about being taught by an old Asian master and you will probably also find stories about being in the military that are just as false. Frank Dux, Yo Sato, David D'antonio, Jack Stern, etc are all great examples of people who have lied about their military as well as their martial arts experiences.

And I think that they never get to a master level because they are so concerned with how people think of them. The typical master, real master, usually is only known after a few decades of work. If you went back in time before he was known you would see someone falling on their face a lot. If you learn from those experiences you gain a lot. After a lot of mistakes and learning from them they eventually get to a point where they know enough to be repected.

But the fraud starts out caring a lot about what people think. So he tries not to put himself in position where he could make a mistake and be seen. Thus he does not get a chance to learn much from his mistakes. And if most of us made a mistake, we would go out and learn how to correct it. Maybe we would go out and find a teacher that could help us. But the fraud just can't admit what he did was a mistake because he cares so much about his status. He can't drop teaching to go back to being a student. He cares so much about being seen as a master that he can't really admit that he has things to learn from others- no matter what they say.

Wow, this has turned into a long post. But I think some of you will see what I am talking about when you examine some of the frauds you have run across.

 

[kroh]

AS some one previously said, we have the internet, better business beureau, and the ability to contact real martial arts muckitymmmucks who are in the know. Frauds are an endangered species. Their not extinct yet but we now have more convenient ways to hunt them.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Flatlander]

I think it's an ego problem. They discover that they get the occasional "oooh" from the few they are able to impress, and get addicted to the attention and false respect they receive. So, they find whatever way they can to keep up the charade.

It's no different than the guy who lies about his job, status, etc. to try to impress women, or the person that manipulates their resume to land a sweet job. It's where greed, ego, self esteem, laziness, and impatience all intersect.

 

[kroh]

It's no different than the guy who lies about his job, status, etc. to try to impress women, or the person that manipulates their resume to land a sweet resume. It's where greed, ego, self esteem, laziness, and impatience all intersect.

Great quote...Now if we could only get an olympic runner to go around the country tagging this up as a sign at every Fraudojo...The only problem is having the proof so as to not mis-label anyone.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Drac]

Don't forget about the secret ninja moves from the government! :ultracool

Don't forget the "secret" techniques that have been handed down to ONLY one individual because he has proven himself worthy of such knowledge..

 

[Aikido13]

I have run across a lot of frauds in my time on the internet. I have come up with the conclusion that they are pretty much born that way.

There are just certain people that want attention. Money may be a factor, but there are easier ways of bilking people out of money through various scams.

Wanting attention is not bad in itself. All the Olympic athletes do so for the chance to be known to the world as the best. Bruce Lee, Charlie Chaplin... the names of people you know are probably mainly those that wanted to be known by others.

The thing is, all of them worked damn hard to get to a place where they had a lot of attention paid to them.

I do not believe that many frauds start out on good footing. Kreth's story of how he got teamed up with a guy who wanted to impress him by dropping the fact that he was a street fighter is a perfect example. It starts with small stories, and then the lies get bigger and bigger and the person gets wrapped up more and more in keeping the image alive.

People like Kreth's streetfighter may train for a while, but soon find they are not doing as well as they want people to think. That is when they make the full break to outright fraud.

Take a look at most frauds and you will see deception revolving around making themselves look good in a variety of manners. Find someone who has lied about being taught by an old Asian master and you will probably also find stories about being in the military that are just as false. Frank Dux, Yo Sato, David D'antonio, Jack Stern, etc are all great examples of people who have lied about their military as well as their martial arts experiences.

And I think that they never get to a master level because they are so concerned with how people think of them. The typical master, real master, usually is only known after a few decades of work. If you went back in time before he was known you would see someone falling on their face a lot. If you learn from those experiences you gain a lot. After a lot of mistakes and learning from them they eventually get to a point where they know enough to be repected.

But the fraud starts out caring a lot about what people think. So he tries not to put himself in position where he could make a mistake and be seen. Thus he does not get a chance to learn much from his mistakes. And if most of us made a mistake, we would go out and learn how to correct it. Maybe we would go out and find a teacher that could help us. But the fraud just can't admit what he did was a mistake because he cares so much about his status. He can't drop teaching to go back to being a student. He cares so much about being seen as a master that he can't really admit that he has things to learn from others- no matter what they say.

Wow, this has turned into a long post. But I think some of you will see what I am talking about when you examine some of the frauds you have run across.

What information do you have about Yo Sato?

 

[Don Roley]

What information do you have about Yo Sato?

William,
It helps if you quote only those sections relevant to your question instead of the whole post.

Here is some information on Yo Sato.

http://www.specsec.org/CDWall.html

It kind of shows proof to my statement that those that lie about martial arts also lie about military feats as well. I have heard many times the statement, "why would he be lying if he does not make a living off of martial arts?" Well, why do people lie about being a Vietnam Green Beret? It is not about money, it is about ego. And someone that cares so much about making other people think that they are some sort of macho commando would not stop at lying about their martial arts training.