When a kick's grabbed...

[Marginal]

Bignick touched on this in another thread, but what does one do when they're caught while trying to kick someone?

Some of the options I'm aware of from class:

1) Punching them. (This, and the others are of course situation dependent. Guy's gotta be in range etc.) Not the kind of thing you can hesitate on, then attempt. You'll probably be on your butt if you pause to think...

2) Twisting the leg out of the grab. More of a variation of the tried and true wrist grab release. Also noticed this in those Shaolin Chin na books, and in one of the TKD books I've read.

3) Pre-emptive breakfall/roll.

 

[Gemini]

The problem with just punching them is, if I'm the holder, I'm looking to rip your leg out of the socket. I can take a punch while doing this. If it's my leg being held, I assume the holder is going to do the same.

The problem with twisting is, if the holder has a good grip, depending on how he's holding you, you could suffer serious knee damage. I've seen this meathod used effectively. I've also it it used with disasterous results.

Falling. If the person holding your leg knows his holds, you just gave him a great target.

What I was taught (and takes a little practice, but has ultimately proven quite effective) is immediately thrust the grapped leg forward. This not only puts your opponent off balance, it puts you in striking range. More times than not, the holder lets go. Especially if he's not expecting it.

These scenarios differ from sparring and self defense. My answers are for general thought. These are based on my personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[bignick]

What I was taught (and takes a little practice, but has ultimately proven quite effective) is immediately thrust the grapped leg forward. This not only puts your opponent off balance, it puts you in striking range. More times than not, the holder lets go. Especially if he's not expecting it.

Personally, this is my favorite method. If you drive hard forward and down you can usually manage to get your foot back on the ground. It also gives you a large amount of momentum and punch thrown while driving in will have a lot of power to further disrupt the attacker.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Does it matter the ind of kick? Differnt angles and direction of momentum?

 

[bignick]

Somewhat. This technique is going to work a lot better when a thrusting-type kick is grabbed because your movement was already going that direction and it is much easier to continue and add to that energy.

 

[MA-Caver]

Personally, this is my favorite method. If you drive hard forward and down you can usually manage to get your foot back on the ground. It also gives you a large amount of momentum and punch thrown while driving in will have a lot of power to further disrupt the attacker.

Yes this (can) be true if the kicking leg in question isn't already fully extended or even 3/4 of the way. The leverage needed to force the leg back down to the ground or even to push forward is lost and in the case of being grabbed it's arrested.
I've had my leg grabbed because of a slow (demonstrative/practice) kick and my reaction to that was to bring the attacker/grabber closer to me so I can punch them.
The thought that goes through my mind immediately whenever I (manage) to catch a kick (no mean feat btw folks for anyone ) is to step back to extend or even hyperextend their limb to take away any force or energy they have left. From there I go down, bringing their leg with me and hope to back bend their knee and thus incapacitating that limb permanently from the fight.
In slow practice sessions I'll do the same and drop down to my knee and use my elbow on their shins.
So, in effect bring your foot back towards you and hope you can bring your attacker into your devestating punch. But be sure to block theirs while throwing yours.
Oh and of course I presume we're talking about front thrust kicks here... not spinning sides or round houses???
:asian: respectfully :asian:

 

[FearlessFreep]

I guess it sorta means it's a chess match.

One self-defense move we've tried against a sidekick is to step back a half step and grab the foot with one hand on top and the other on bottom and twist. Done quickly, I'm not sure if the shove forward or the pull back would work and I guess you're just better off going along with the twist and then try to roll out of it and get back up

Another self-defense we've worked on, against a front kick, is to turn the body to the side, stepping forward, so the kick comes up the back/ribs, and trap it between the arm and the ribs. Then, while still trapping the leg, you switch stance, coming into the opponents body and displacing their hips with yours (also sliding a foot close behind their remaining foot to keep them from back tracking) and they go do pretty quick. Again, I'm not sure if either the shove forward or the pull back are going to be effective against this trap and take down are executed quickly and properly. Maybe the best counter to this is simply to punch the uy in th solar plexus or the face as he comes in for the takedown, or maybe to grap his shirt and try to twist him and take him down with you. I don't know.

But, the thing is, we train self-defense against being kicked, which gives us a leg up, if you will, against someone trying to kick us. An advantage over trying to kick a (untrained) guy and he just grabs your foot.

But is your 'counter to a trap' going to be better than my 'trap to counter a kick'? Hmmm...dunno? What *am* I going to do with that foot once I've got it? Is your escape from the trap going to work againsgt me, or work into the same direction of force I would take you anyway?

That's where it becomes a chess match, their is a defense to every attack and a counter to every counter and in the end I don't think there is going to be one singular good counter to...anything... Very similar to sparring, it's easy to say "I'm going to do this and h's going to do that in response and then I will..." but t hat never happens. So it's a chess match of guess, attack, respond and rethink.

I think what you do when someone grabs your foot depends on what they do when they've grabbed your foot

 

[FearlessFreep]

One other thought on this is this is one reason I would be hesitant to kick unless I was in position to think it probably wouldn't be blocked, if I could help it.

I can cresent kick about head high from pretty close in, so one thing I've been practicing a lot recently is to get in close and use combinations to set up the kick. jab-punch-cresent, jab-punch-push kick, jab-punch,roundhouse, jab-punch-spinning sidekick, etc.... Basically, if I'm in close, use hand strikes to hurt, distract, and maybe push back my opponet so that the more powerful leg strike can be delivered more safely.

Also, you can do things to distract your opponent or get them to back pedal. Like a sudden shuffle in quick,pause, then strike will get them reacting to the wrong rhythm. Wave a hand up for a sec to get their eyes to follow the motion, etc...

In sparring, at leasts the rules I've seen, we don't have to worry about traps and I think that sometimes lulls us into a sense of not being aware that it can happen and it effects our tactics in general. I think one of the first ways to prevent a trap is to be strategic in use of kicks and use them in a way that lessens the opportunity.

Don't forget those low kicks...hard to trap a roundhouse to the knee....

 

[Andrew Green]

Try to get your foot to the ground (straight down) and look for a whizzer or cross face to keep him from getting leverege to take you down.

That's your most basic response that will work the most often.

Or just jump to a flying triangle

 

[arnisador]

It depends on so many factors. Sometimes you can jump up and kick with the other foot. Sometimes you can force the foot down. Sometimes you can fall to the guard. Sometimes you can grab the hair/ears and attack the head. Sometimes you can just climb onto your opponent. Sometimes you can hop for a while and stall for time.

Sometimes, you're gonna get swept.

 

[bignick]

One thing you never want to try to do is jump and kick them with your other leg. Anybody that sees it coming, even with little or no training, is going to be able to drop you straight on your head. There will be no way for you to be able to take any sort of breakfall because he's guiding you with your legs right into the ground. You might be able to brace with your hands, but then you run the risk of breaking your wrists. It's just not a pretty situation, any way you cut it.

As for what happens if I catch somebody's leg? I smile to myself, thanking God for the small gifts he gives me...

 

[swiftpete]

One of the reasons I don't kick any more. Get a knee in there instead! Sorry to jump in with that but you know...!

 

[Flying Crane]

What I was taught (and takes a little practice, but has ultimately proven quite effective) is immediately thrust the grapped leg forward. This not only puts your opponent off balance, it puts you in striking range. More times than not, the holder lets go. Especially if he's not expecting it.

Yes, this is a specific defense taught in Kenpo. I think it can be useful. Obviously it won't work in every circumstance, and isn't the "perfect" solution, but it's a good tool to have in the toolbox.

 

[Grenadier]

Depends on the circumstance.

You can try grabbing them in return, which stands an excellent chance of succeeding. If you want, you can try to take them down as well, but you had better be certain about your own ground fighting skills!

 

[Last Fearner]

what does one do when they're caught while trying to kick someone?

First, I believe that it is important to train to do kicks fast, hard, and at the proper timing, making it virtually impossible for someone to grab your leg without getting seriously injured. Too many Taekwondo fighters get used to the tournament approach of kick, kick, kick, and maybe punch, knowing that grabbing is not allowed. For self defense, you must reserve your kicks to the right moment. If someone grabs a kick, it should also result in a broken bone to whatever gets in the way.

In the event that something goes wrong, and your leg is grabbed, there are a few things you can do as mentioned by others. It is a viable option to rapidly kick with the supporting foot. This must be done so fast, without telegraphing, that there is no time for an opponent to "dump you" on the ground. However, if you do go to the ground, use a breakfall, survive the landing, then beat the tar out of the person.

The best, and most simple method I use against a leg grab is to bend the leg that has been trapped, drawing the person closer to me, and my hands will do the damage since they have theirs tied up on my leg. My leg is much stronger than their arms so I have no problem moving them around or ripping my leg free. I can rapidly shake the kicking leg, and jerk the person around until they let go.

In class, I will often times extend a kick slowly to an adult student and let them grab it with both arms as tight as they want. Then I say "hang on for the ride," and see how long before they let go. The rapid and powerful jerking motion gives them no stability (now, I'm experienced with this so don't challenge a student to rip your knee out of socket, cause they might). This is just my way of dealing with it - - perhaps you might try it out sometime, but be careful in practice.

Happy kicking!
Sr. Master Eisenhart

 

[Makalakumu]

If someone grabs a kick that we throw, we usually try to jerk it free first by driving forward. If that doesn't work, we close the distance with our hands and strike or hold on for the sweep and grappling. Sometimes one can execute a throw when the kick is held. Depending on the position, sometimes tominage is possible and sometimes kanesute is possible. Andrew Green's suggestion of a flying triangle is not a bad one. People who catch kicks are often expecting to grapple and know they have the upper hand. Sometimes this can take them by surprise.