What is the difference

[KELLYG]

What in your opinion is the difference between a Martial Artist, Martial Hobbiest. And how would you rank your self, A, B, C, D, F in your art?

 

[celtic_crippler]

What in your opinion is the difference between a Martial Artist, Martial Hobbiest. And how would you rank your self, A, B, C, D, F in your art?

From my perspective:

A Martial Artist lives a martial lifestyle. Their life revolves around the arts. They practice away from the dojo regularly. They read martial related materials and research all they can on the topic. They most likely have converted thier garage into a dojo.

A Martial Hobbiest treats the art as any other hobby. Their lives do not revolve around the arts. They may practice away from the dojo but not nearly to the extent of the Martial Artist. They don't feel the least bit bad about missing a class where the martial artist will beat themselves up over it.

It's a lifestyle thing. You either live it or you don't. If you don't, you're a hobbyist.

How would I rank myself in my current art? I don't know. I'm never happy with myself...probably a strong C+...because I think I'm better than average but I feel I always need to improve in some area(s).

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I'm a martial hobbyist that wants to be a martial artist but doesn't put in the adequate effort. I could shuffle things in my life to make time if I really wanted to but I don't feel it's worth it for me. When your schedule is full, you have to make sacrifices. While I agree with the above definitions, I enjoy my quality of life (I base the quality on what I value) and that quality of life would suffer if I invested adequately in the martial arts. When mom was paying for it and I was in school I could afford to devote almost all my free time to training and studying but now I have a job, need to keep a clean house and want to spend fridays and saturdays socializing. I have therapy on mondays, french class on tuesdays, savate on wednesdays, thursdays I stay late at work. I warm up, stretch and do conditioning every day or every second day as a rule but have lost a lot of the desire to recieve instruction when I've learned enough to work on what I've got. Savate is honestly more about getting out of the house, making french jokes and sparring than it is about working on finesse. I don't even have much interest in the word "art" associated with it. I find art is more about self expression than propogation so I only really call them martial arts to avoid arguments over innane things. I feel JKD is more of an art because of the emphasis on self-expression and respect for your own individuality having a bigger influence on you than a mentor. I'm interested mostly in the physics and psychology of self defense, not how karate etc. can influence every aspect of my life. I do prefer the idea of a dirty, cold, run down boxing gym with leaky pipes and stained mats to the tidy, well supplied dojo. I think strife is an essential part of a serious martial artist, even if they have to impose it upon themselves. You have to have that hungry desire for accomplishment that I'm sad to say have lost. Now I just don't want to get soft.

 

[celtic_crippler]

...I enjoy my quality of life (I base the quality on what I value) and that quality of life would suffer if I invested adequately in the martial arts.

The Martial Artist would say, "...that quality of life would suffer if I DID NOT invest adequately in the martial arts."

That's not a dig, but EM's post probably did a better job of showing the base difference than my initial post did.

Perhaps you could even say that a Martial Artist is overzealous. Where a Martial Hobbyist manages to fit it in with the rest of their life, a Martial Artist considers martial arts as their life.

 

[Rich Parsons]

The Martial Artist would say, "...that quality of life would suffer if I DID NOT invest adequately in the martial arts."

That's not a dig, but EM's post probably did a better job of showing the base difference than my initial post did.

Perhaps you could even say that a Martial Artist is overzealous. Where a Martial Hobbyist manages to fit it in with the rest of their life, a Martial Artist considers martial arts as their life.

I think there should be another catagory of Passion.

Hobby: Something you do once or twice a week but can go a while without doing it and all is good.

Passion: You enjoy it do it alot. I know guys that play on soccor leagus all week long and even the weekend. They do indoor programs in the winter, this is their passion. A martial artist in this area could be training a lot and attending a lot of classes, and enjoying and even miss it when they miss a class, but have not embraced the complete lifestyle of the over zealous as you stated.

Life Style: Those that not only choose their cloths (* is some wiht Passion do *) to be able to move, but only have cloths they can move in. They always have a weapon on them be it improvised to knife to firearm. They may never need it as they also are aware of what is around them, they travel around bad areas, they never let their gas get below 50% and always have a good running vehicle. Vehicle choice is not chosen for miles per gallon, but for safety for them and their family. (* Yes small and sporty can be a valid choice and being able to avoid a problem with the proper driving skills also is good self defense. *)

How would I rate myself?

I train a lot. I try to eat right but have the occasional beer once or twice a month. I will treat myself to a sweet from time to time. I will also look at myself and not be happy with what I have. I keep trying to get better, and to adjust for what I have lost in natural ability with skill as I get older.

Some days I would say A+ when I see students getting what I am teaching. Other days I could say F- when I am working on something for myself and just seem to need something more. I understand the walking away and thinking and absorbing, but if you were to grade at any given moment it could run the whole area depending upon the current situation.

And yes I my Hearth and Mantle have actual weapons and training weapons that I practice with. My front Living room is pretty empty as I use to to practice in. I can move out the furniture on the one wall if I need more room.

 

[-steve-]

I think that passion category is a good addition. I'm not obssesed with the art i'm in, however i consider it more then a hobby. In my current situation the school I go to only has 2 classes per week, I have never missed a class yet and find my self longing for more. It's more then a hobby but its not the be all and end all of my life. How would I rate myself? I'm not even going there

 

[Bruno@MT]

I have a passion, and a drive to practise in the dojo and at home. I don't skip practise if there is any way for me to attend. I learn about the history, and I have even started learning the language (Japanese). That said, it is not my obsession or my life. It is part of me; not the whole.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What in your opinion is the difference between a Martial Artist, Martial Hobbiest?

Martial artist: I really dislike this term and have yet to see it defined in any appropriate way.

For the purposes of this conversation, I will say anyone who's actual profession specifically involves the practice of martial arts, or who may have income from another area, but spends the majority of their life in practice of the martial arts (such as an independently wealthy person who teaches class on a voluteer basis).

Hobbyist: You have a day job or other profession that is not martial arts or martial arts related and that job or profession is a higher priority than training or class.

Rich had mentioned another category of passion. I suppose that such a category could be called a martial arts enthusiast, though I am okay with being a hobbyist, personally. Having worked at a hobby store and seeing the level of dedication that many "hobbyists" have, model railroaders in particular, the term hobbyist is one that has very positive connotations for me, and likely describes the vast majority of us in the arts.

And how would you rank your self, A, B, C, D, F in your art?

Kendo B
Hapkido C
Taekwondo C

Daniel

 

[ap Oweyn]

Hobbyist all the way. My commitment to family far outweighs my commitment to martial arts. And I wouldn't feel good about the balance being different than it is. Which mean I'm NOT willing to rearrange my priorities to get to practice. If I have to miss a Saturday morning practice in order to go and see my four-year-old daughter play her kickball game, I say "A okay with me."

Does that make me less of a martial artist? Yeah, of course. I'm not devoting nearly the time to practice that someone more driven is. And that's fine too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and I've kinda come full circle. I think about it a lot, and it's certainly had an indelible effect on me over the years, but I wouldn't cease being me if I had to give it up altogether (which I may for health reasons and time commitments).

My lifestyle is multifaceted. I play a lot of roles and, frankly, wouldn't want to be hemmed into one of them the way that this definition would suggest. No offense to people who arrange their priorities differently, mind you. This is a very personal decision, and provided all the moving parts work together, any arrangement can fly. But for me, it's simply not feasible or desirable for it to hold the hallowed position in my life it once did.

Maybe I'll come around again in the future. Who knows.


Stuart

 

[KELLYG]

My turn. I am a Martial Hobbyist. I enjoy training and am there to learn only. I think that a Martial Artist is some one that has spent significant time training in there art and developing their skills set to a level that they can turn around and teach it to some one else. The training would not necessarily be all Martial Arts based, but all would be done to improve their art. If I had to honestly grade my self it would fluctuate from B to D depending on how I felt and my attitude.

 

[Omar B]

I don't know where to put myself of the scale of martial artist or martial hobbyist. I've done karate, the same style of karate for most of my life, though there have been huge breaks in my training because I moved around a lot as a kid. I've dabbled in other styles (Choi Kwang Do, TKD, MT, Bujinkan) but at the end of the day I think of myself as a karateka and that's where I feel most comfortable.

 

[ATC]

Martial Hobbiest vs. Martial Artist?

I don't think the them "Martial Hobbiest" exist. The term Hobby by itself is an ambiguous term at best, as hobby means nothing more than spare-time recreational pursuit.

What is spare time? That is the question. When I am practiceing my art is that my spare time or my time I dedicate to my art? If I take a nap is that spare time or time I dedicate to my nap?

The problem is we try to define everything even when some things can't be defined. We will make up a definition that really means nothing and put what we can't define in that catagorie. For example, someone may say I operate a ham radio as a hobby. Well does that mean you don't operate or have the abilty to operate a ham radio when you are not do so? Regardless of when you operate the ham radio you still are a ham radio operater. Adding the term as a hobby really means nothing.

Most everything we do can be called a hobby, even our jobs. Yes we do it to survive but there are tons of different jobs and many of us have done more than one type of job. I still know how to do past jobs and may do them when not doing my current job so is this a hobby? Will my current job be a hobby when I nolonger do it as my primary means of income?

Either you are a martial artist or you are not, regardless if you partake during your spare time or not.

 

[bekkilyn]

I also don't believe the term "martial hobbiest" exists. Anyone who practices a martial art is a martial artist, just the same as someone who does watercolors or weaves tapestries. One may not be very good at it, but the person is still an artist. The person might just be a beginning artist, or an amateur vs. professional (as in one who makes an income with art) artist, but an artist all the same.

Plus, a number of us do not define ourselves by the jobs we perform primarily for money.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Martial Hobbyist and Martial Warriors are both martial Artist, but it's a difference in degree and mindset.

Some folks just like the activity and the bonus that it can help them to defend themselves.

A Warrior (whether a professional warrior like a Soldier or cop or a Civillian warrior, who lives a warrioresque lifestyle) trains for effect and proficentcy first and everything else comes after.

They all contain good people, worthy of respect but they are not equal, you could almost equate the latter with "Knights" and the former with " Militia" in a sense.

I strive to help the students get the best they can out of Jujutsu but Warriors will recieve more attention and will be taught much finer points, a hobbyist I just want to have a good time, train safe and have some skills to get them out of trouble.

I expect a Warior to dominate trouble IF it comes.

 

[MJS]

What in your opinion is the difference between a Martial Artist, Martial Hobbiest. And how would you rank your self, A, B, C, D, F in your art?

I'd say the Martial Artist is one who is serious about their training. They dont necessarily have to eat, sleep and breath it, but it is something thats up there high on the priority list. The MAist finds the time to practice outside of the dojo, more than a few days a week. In other words, its something thats part of their daily routine. If it means getting up 30min earlier and running thru kata or SD then so be it.

The hobbiest is someone that does the martial arts for a hobby. They are not as dedicated as the MAist. They may only train during class, and when they're in class, they're not as concerned with things as the MAist would be.

Where do I rank myself in my training? I'd say a C, because like CC, while I think of myself as a good MAist, there is always stuff that I can work on to make better.

 

[J Ellis]

What is the difference?

I do not "do" or "take" martial arts.

I am a martial artist/practitioner. I am a student of martial skills and science.

Joel

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

From my perspective:

A Martial Artist lives a martial lifestyle. Their life revolves around the arts. They practice away from the dojo regularly. They read martial related materials and research all they can on the topic. They most likely have converted thier garage into a dojo.

A Martial Hobbiest treats the art as any other hobby. Their lives do not revolve around the arts. They may practice away from the dojo but not nearly to the extent of the Martial Artist. They don't feel the least bit bad about missing a class where the martial artist will beat themselves up over it.

It's a lifestyle thing. You either live it or you don't. If you don't, you're a hobbyist.

How would I rank myself in my current art? I don't know. I'm never happy with myself...probably a strong C+...because I think I'm better than average but I feel I always need to improve in some area(s).

Martial artist fer sure; not because I'm a legend, but because I'm INSANE lol!

Here's why:

1) Practice almost everyday since I started again 'bout a year ago.

2) Do crazy things like trying to perfect the ****ing neutral bow.

3) Work the bag regularly; just spent the last week getting pretty serious with the reverse ****ing punch till I lost some skin off the left middle knuckle (Ha ha!).

4) Missed formal class for two weeks because of a pretty bad cough, and would be stir-****inf-crazy by now, but for the fact that I'm finally well enough to be there tonight (Yippeee!!)

5) Have a big-enough library of reading material that's still growing by the day.

6) Love what I do, and could not imagine life apart from Kenpo!

TCG

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

That said, I'm about to become a first-time father (just 1 more month away:boing2 so I'm sure my schedule's gonna take a real beating.

But I wouldn't change that for the world.

TCG

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

ATC,

To start with, some of my response may come across as condescending. That is not my intent, and if it does, I do apologize ahead of time.

Martial Hobbiest vs. Martial Artist?

I don't think the them "Martial Hobbiest" exist.

Likewise, I do not think that the term "martial artist" exists, not as a consistently or well defined term anyway. It is a very modern term, and only came into vogue with students who practice an art independently LEO or military training, most often in a studio where an Asian fighting system is taught, and with no consideration of their ability to produce or the time that they spend in class and on training between class. Oddly, western fighting systems are generally not referred to, or even thought of as a "martial art" by the general public.

People who show up to class once or twice every couple of weeks; are they martial artists?

The guy who tries hard, shows up for class four times a week, but cannot execute a single technique effectively; is he a martial artist?

What makes them an artist in any sense?

Take the skilled guy, who competes pro or semi pro: what makes him an artist and not a technician? Or an athlete? Or just a fighter? We do not generally call gymnastics an art; it is a sport. But it certainly is more artistic and has a much greater degree of subjectivity than fighting. We do not call them tumble artists, but gymnists. Even figure skaters, who are essentially engaging in dance, are not called skate artists.

The term Hobby by itself is an ambiguous term at best, as hobby means nothing more than spare-time recreational pursuit. What is spare time? That is the question. When I am practiceing my art is that my spare time or my time I dedicate to my art? If I take a nap is that spare time or time I dedicate to my nap?

Not nearly as ambiguous a term as "artist" is.

Spare time is defined as time that one can spare for things that you do not need to be doing.

You need to sleep. You need to earn a living. You need to eat. Though some people may not realize it, they need to spend quality time with their families. Depending upon one's religious background, they may need to attend services at proscribed times. These things are non-negotiables.

On the other hand, you do not specifically need to go to martial arts class unless you obligated to teach the class, in which case it is no longer spare time, or you are a paid competitor who needs to train in order to do his or her job.

Now, you may want to go to martial arts class, be dedicated to going, and pour yourself into it, but if you do not go to class or stop training, the needs of your life will not be hampered in any way.

The problem is we try to define everything even when some things can't be defined. We will make up a definition that really means nothing and put what we can't define in that catagorie. For example, someone may say I operate a ham radio as a hobby. Well does that mean you don't operate or have the abilty to operate a ham radio when you are not do so? Regardless of when you operate the ham radio you still are a ham radio operater. Adding the term as a hobby really means nothing.

The question that you ask in the above paragraph does not pertain to being a hobbyist. The term hobbyist implies that it is:
1. not your profession or main profession
2. not an obligation that you cannot simply choose not to do because you do not feel like it on a given night.
3. not a needed component of your profession or family life.

Whether or not you have the ability to do something is unrelated to whether or not it is a hobby.

Most everything we do can be called a hobby, even our jobs. Yes we do it to survive but there are tons of different jobs and many of us have done more than one type of job. I still know how to do past jobs and may do them when not doing my current job so is this a hobby? Will my current job be a hobby when I no longer do it as my primary means of income?

What do your past jobs have to do with anything?? Do you continue to do your past jobs? I used to work for Guitar Center. I no longer do. I do not go to Guitar Center and work the guitar department for fun. I only go there as a customer. My job as a sales associate for Guitar center was a profession, one that I no longer engage in (I work elsewhere and make a greater sum of money doing so). I still fiddle with guitars when I have the time, but that does not make me a Guitar Center Employee hobbyist.

Either you are a martial artist or you are not, regardless if you partake during your spare time or not.

Define martial artist. What makes you an "artist" instead of just some guy who punches and kicks? Lots of people draw stick figures. They are not artists. Lots of people draw nice pictures once in a while. They do not call themselves artists.

I have seen this debate played out on more than one site. I always wind up asking myself this question: Why do people who essentially go to the gym consider themselves artists just because they wear a dogi and an obi when they do so?

One last point: just because the word 'arts' is involved, does not make those who participate artists by default. When one goes to college and studies, or perhaps earns a degree in liberal 'arts' or any other degree that has the suffix of 'arts', they are not considered artists. Even someone with an art degree is not called an artists. They are called an art major. They may go on to become an artist, but just having the degree does not make them so.

Having said that, if someone wants to style themselves as a martial artist, a warrior, or some other related term, that is certainly their choice and that is okay with me, and I am not going to tell someone that they are right or wrong for doing so.

Daniel

 

[ap Oweyn]

What is the difference?

I do not "do" or "take" martial arts.

I am a martial artist/practitioner. I am a student of martial skills and science.

Joel

Yeah, but what does that actually mean? I mean, you do, in fact, DO martial arts. Or TAKE martial arts. You attend a class, perform prescribed drills and techniques, etc. That's what being a practitioner and student means. So what distinction are you drawing here?


Stuart