What are the differences between Ninjutsu families?

Bester

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[size=-1]Bujinkan is the widest known 'branch', but there are others. What are they, how do they differ, and which ones are 'legit' Japanese Ninjutsu and which ones are modern creations?

I ask that this be kept strictly factual, and non-emotional in response.

Thank you.
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Enson

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you can probably do a search and find that this has all been discussed/argued before... even on threads not pertaining to the subject.
 
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Bester

Bester

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I know of 3 Japanese families: Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan. Are there more?

I also know of the "Ninjitsu" group which seems to not be considered Japanese ninjutsu.

I've heard of a "Renegade Ninjutsu" group as well, but couldn't find much info on it either.

Thank you.
 

Enson

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Bester said:
I know of 3 Japanese families: Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan. Are there more?

I also know of the "Ninjitsu" group which seems to not be considered Japanese ninjutsu.

I've heard of a "Renegade Ninjutsu" group as well, but couldn't find much info on it either.

Thank you.
there are or were from what i've read like 53 koga families. if you do a search on the net you can probably find them pretty easy. as far as differences... in my opinion i think people have taken what is practicle to them and taught that. so i think even in the same clans, schools, dojos, etc. you will probably find some differences.
 

Cryozombie

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Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan...

All three schools are based on the teachings of Takamatsu Toshitsugu... similar schools in scope, technique, etc... but offer differing training philosophy.
 

Bob Hubbard

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TP, something got misfiltered. Can you PM me that name but with a space between each letter so I can fix the filter?

:)
 

Cruentus

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Enson said:
there are or were from what i've read like 53 koga families. if you do a search on the net you can probably find them pretty easy. as far as differences... in my opinion i think people have taken what is practicle to them and taught that. so i think even in the same clans, schools, dojos, etc. you will probably find some differences.

What about ****yourmominkan? lol...kidding, as I saw that TP got filtered, so I figured, why be left out? :uhyeah:

I am curious... what is the difference between families and schools? As far as I know, it would seem that all roads lead to Bujinkan (or at least Hatsumi lineage) somehow; Genbukan and Jinenkan were all started by instructors who broke off from Bujinkan. Most independents who are recognized as teaching authentic Ninjitsu can trace their lineage to Bujinkan.

This is my conclusion, all from the results of another thread where I asked the same question.

So...back to 56 families. Huh? How does that fit into the mix? Don Roley....help!

Yours,

Dr. HaHa Lung
 

Enson

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Tulisan said:
What about ****yourmominkan? lol...kidding, as I saw that TP got filtered, so I figured, why be left out? :uhyeah:

So...back to 56 families. Huh? How does that fit into the mix? Don Roley....help!

Yours,

Dr. HaHa Lung
i thought i wrote 53 families... oh wait... no i did write 53! lol! i always considered a "ryu" like a family, but if we did that then there would be a lot more out there.
 

Cruentus

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Enson said:
i thought i wrote 53 families... oh wait... no i did write 53! lol! i always considered a "ryu" like a family, but if we did that then there would be a lot more out there.

O.K.... 53, not 56. But, that still doesn't answer my questions above.

One family...a-a-ahh!

yours,
The Count
 

Enson

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Bester said:
I know of 3 Japanese families: Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan. Are there more?

I also know of the "Ninjitsu" group which seems to not be considered Japanese ninjutsu.

I've heard of a "Renegade Ninjutsu" group as well, but couldn't find much info on it either.

Thank you.
also "how does this fit in the mix?"
i just mentioned that there was more than 3 families.(like i mentioned before just what i read on the net from a couple of websites. i wasn't there to count them or anything) although that "renegade ninjutsu" sounds cool! lol!:ultracool
 

Bujingodai

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There are a heap of other systms other than tha Kans. Whether all or any are legit is up to ones own opinion.

If you are interested in discussing any of these at length with an open mind, go to http://unv.aimoo.com
The board looks a little flashier than it is. It is password protected so you'd have to be accessed.
Anyway, I assume that may pull some of the "indie" chat off this board.
 

Cruentus

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Bujingodai said:
There are a heap of other systms other than tha Kans. Whether all or any are legit is up to ones own opinion.

If you are interested in discussing any of these at length with an open mind, go to http://unv.aimoo.com
The board looks a little flashier than it is. It is password protected so you'd have to be accessed.
Anyway, I assume that may pull some of the "indie" chat off this board.

O.K....but don't all those Indie schools that are legit trace back to the Kans?
 

Don Roley

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Tulisan said:
So...back to 56 families. Huh? How does that fit into the mix? Don Roley....help!

Yours,

Dr. HaHa Lung

Not quite 56 families, but I will try to explain.

The art of ninjutsu was made for entering enemy territory and collecting information. In 1600, Tokugawa Ieyasu unified the country under him. The closest rival for his position was killed off in the siege of Osaka in 1615.

From that point until Perry sailed into Tokyo harbor in 1853, there was no enemy territory. There was little need for the art. Being practical, the Japanese modified what they did to suit the times rather than the past. Ninja started doing the duties of regular samurai. In ten generations time, the numbers dwindled not do to any program or need for secrecy. They died out like the western art of the mideaval sword died out- lack of need.

So, it would appear that in the 20th century there were left only two sources of ninjutsu; Fujita Seiko and Toshitsugu Takamatsu. Fujita was pretty secretive and no source in Japan claims to know of any full fledged students of his. The art died with him. Takamatsu taugth Hatsumi, who taught the students who went on to form the Genbukan and the Jinenkan.

Now, if anyone knows of any Japanese ninjutsu art that has ties to Japan, I would love to hear about them. Some people have tried to say that I have a bias against other arts since I am a potential rival. But I do not teach and I spend a lot of my time examining other martial arts in Japan. I go to demonstrations, take seminars, buy books, videos, etc. I like to compare and contrast what I do with what others do. I ahve never been able to do this with ninjutsu.

My only requirement to count an art as legitimate is that they prove a link to Japan for their instruction. I am not talking about claiming to have been taught by Fujita Seiko. If you can prove you trained with him, fine. But just claiming to is not enough. I do not accept an Asian in your family tree as enough proof. My family came from Europe and I never learned western sword. No, I require only that you prove your claim of recieing training froma source that can be linked to Japan for its training. That is not much, but no one has been able to do that so far.

I have mentioned the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten before. If you are in that book and listed as a living art, I will accept it. If not, until you show some other sort of proof to your claims, I will not. The idea that an art from Japan would not be known in Japan but taught outside of it is just too silly for words. There was evena great article at Furyu.com that deals with martial arts cults that deals with that line. Go check it out if you can.

So, the ninja died out do to a lack of interest, not secrecy. The only two sources mentioned on the internet that actually existed in Japan in the 20th century were Fujita and Takamatsu. Fujita's art died with him. Takamatsu's tradition is the only art that is still being taught today that is known in Japan and the only excuse I hear as to why some arts are not known in Japan sound
like bad Hong Kong cinema than anything worthy of discussion.

I swear, we talked abotu this before in a special thread a while back.
 

Cryozombie

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Tulisan said:
O.K....but don't all those Indie schools that are legit trace back to the Kans?

Thats the big question that has started a lot of the fighting. Most of the indie schools that Trace back to the Kan are accepted with a grain of salt by most practitoners as somewhat legitimate arts.

But Indie organizations like Ashida Kim's Black Dragon Ninja's...

The problem, IMO, is this...

"Ninja" is to most people a farce. If you study, say, Kempo, and say "I study kempo" at worst you may get a "Whats a Kempo?" or a "Oh yeah, can you kick that guys a$$"

But if you study Ninjutsu, and say that, you get a "Oh sure ya do. Ninja man over here..." because the tv and movie industry, and the "Fraudulent schools" have built up a reputation that destroyed the credibility of our art. Things like Kim claiming you can tame bees to do your bidding ("Making of a Ninja") and Dux using "Dim Mak" to crush bricks ("The Secret Man") make people skeptical at best about what Ninpo is.

So the arts that were founded out of the teachings of Takamatsu (Jinnekan, Bujinkan, Genbukan, and even the Quest Centers) work hard for an aura of legitimacy. But A lot of other "Ninja" schools pop up, and teach "The hollywood stuff" and claim "secret ninja origins" and then that works against the credibility of the art of ninjutsu as a whole. Are any of them legitimate, even if they are not offshoots of the Takamatsu-den? Who knows... they dont feel the need to prove that they are real... until they do... all we can do is speculate.

Most of the speculation is that they are not... which leads to a lot of the fighting on this board.
 

Bujingodai

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Tulisan,
Techno makes a pretty good point.
Most of us "indies" did part from the Kan for whatever reason, so yes in effect many of the schools can trace alot back to that. Myself I was trained in the Kan, but wouldn't be so bold as to state I teach BBT. I am not a Godan in the Kan. But also I'd state that the skills I learned would be a part of what I do. There are a bunch of schools that don't have ties either. I won't argue their legitamicy. Not my job, not my care. I have met a bunch of them some of them not so good some really good, but all have something to offer.
Unfortunatly "Ninja" a word I don't use to describe our school, attracts a plethora of goofballs. The fantasy factor really brings them in, usually pretty easy to pick out.
I guess in the end it is all what they offer and what the do and do not lie about. For me I don't see a reason to lie about it, as you just become a victim of scrutiny. Don't need the grief.
Anyway thats about it.
 

Cruentus

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As far as I am concerned, as long as you tell the truth, then it should be fine.

I don't personally care if someone says "Hey, my teacher broke off from so and so, and we do bla-bla ninjitsu." I think it is when people make up fake backgrounds, it reduces the name "ninjitsu" to sillyness, unfortunatily.

Sincerely,

Frank Dux
 

Don Roley

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Tulisan said:
SO...56 (or 53) families of Ninja idea would be, basically, crap then.

That number just refers to the original number of Koga families that had an allience with the Rokkaku family in Omi.

Go to Jigokudojo.com and look in the article section for one by me on the Koga ryu. That should explain more if you are interested in further trivia. It ain7t of much importance now, aside from historical stuff.
 

Enson

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i think everyone can tell here that i study tew-ryu. when i decided to take up ma i knew it had to be ninjitsu. i looked into hayes, donk and other bujin schools also before i knew better i even looked at kim. i looked at bussey in which i was really impressed. when i chose tew-ryu i decided it was the right school for me. i believe i made a wise choice when i looked at sensei tew as a whole. he's not overweight or to old to walk, but is good at what he does and is a good teacher. i asked about his teachers and found out that he did train with frank dux, but broke off to study with bussey. now i have seen dux's students and i have to say some are really impressive. (i believe one should judge a man by his skill, guess from my music backround) from what i have seen i chose to study under rick tew. i believe that i joined a modern art form that never claims to be traditional. now if that makes me less than because my rebook don't get tighter when i push the basketball on the tongue of my shoe... so be it. but if you believe in your style and feel it is superior... then that works for you. i do believe that there were more "ninja" families out there. (maybe not as public) but i'm sure some imigrated to u.s.a. and taught some students. i do say that dux should at least show a picture of tanaka so that there won't be so much talk. anyway i respect sensei tew for never lying or being shakey about who he is or where he came from. my brother used to study jkd from gary dill and just switched to toshindo. that works for him. now when i post i will only post what i know or what i've read and i will state that before. sure i'm sure many more out there know more than me and have studied longer. so i think you guys should try and help the rest and not be so "racist" against any other style proclaiming ninjutsu/ninjitsu as their art. now that is my opinion and i'm sticking to it
peace
 

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