WC and internal roots

barnaby

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This thread is an offspring of a General Chinese Arts discussion regarding internal arts. I have received more than skeptical feedback in my listing of Wing Chun as an internal art.

"It is widely believed that the Wing Chun Kung Fu system was developed by a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui, trained in Shaolin Kung Fu, over 300 years ago in China. She synthesized all of the martial arts she had learned at the Shaolin Temple down to a simple and direct fighting style that anyone, regardless of size, could use. Her first pupil was a young woman named Yim Wing Chun. The nun named her style of Kung Fu after this student." -- from the Hawkins Cheung site (http://www.hawkinscheung.com/), under "Wing Chun."

So if we are to assume this nun didn't steer clear of three very powerful arts in particular, this points toward Wing Chun being of a secondary category, according to one of the contributors to the conversation -- an art derivitive of the internal arts. Many practitioners of these three arts, Tai Chi, Bagua, and Tsing I (SP?, sorry no time to cover my *** on the spelling of that right now) have been through my school and noticed the influence of their arts very clearly.

I don't have investment in making anyone else believe what I know of my art form -- Wing Chun is the "bastard that got away" of the internal arts, and its reputation will likely always put it in its own category for many reasons -- however I don't have to swallow statements of confidence that do not take into account many subtle aspects of what I've enjoyed training for sometime now.

http://www.romerowingchun.com
 

7starmantis

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I think there are many, many arts that have many if not all of the internal aspects and principles of the three main "internal arts" but as far as the distinction goes thats just the ones people know and understadn as the three main. I personally have an issue with the whole Internal/External distinctions and seperations as many many systems have the internal aspects and principles. But, what can you do? People have lived with these labels and people understand these labels, people will argue adamantly that these distoinctiosn should exist and that this art or that art is or isn't "internal".

Its all subjective and the distinctions are good if understood for what they are, simply semantical labels to help categorize. They go no further than that. Some people place so much importance on the words internal or external and will fight and argue to death that a style is good or bad based on if it can be called by one of the words. Its pretty trite to me, but for some reason, people can't get past words sometimes.

7sm
 

monji112000

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Ip Man's lineage of Wing Chun has no internal aspects at all. Ip Man didn't teach anyone any Qi kung or Internal techniques breathing ect.. unless their was a secrete disciple that no one knows about.


I have practiced Qi kung and iron body (briefly trained it). I can't comment on its effectiveness. I can say that from what I hear (two different sources) Ip Man had said that he never came across anyone that could use Qi/internal kung fu in a fight. That doesn't mean that Qi Kung has no benefit, just that in all the people he has fought (and many other people have said the same thing) NONE can use the Qi for martial purposes (IE iron body, qi blast ect..).


Maybe some people can.. I am not a expert on the matter. I had heard someone ask my Sifu about Qi kung and WC fighting. He said the best Qi kung is good cardio workout.

I know the “self proclaimed Grandmaster of Wing Chun” William Chueng has added Qi kung to his “traditional” Wing Chun. Other Styles(mainland) of Wing Chun may use Qi kung allot.
 

bcbernam777

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Ip Man's lineage of Wing Chun has no internal aspects at all. Ip Man didn't teach anyone any Qi kung or Internal techniques breathing ect.. unless their was a secrete disciple that no one knows about.


I have practiced Qi kung and iron body (briefly trained it). I can't comment on its effectiveness. I can say that from what I hear (two different sources) Ip Man had said that he never came across anyone that could use Qi/internal kung fu in a fight. That doesn't mean that Qi Kung has no benefit, just that in all the people he has fought (and many other people have said the same thing) NONE can use the Qi for martial purposes (IE iron body, qi blast ect..).


Maybe some people can.. I am not a expert on the matter. I had heard someone ask my Sifu about Qi kung and WC fighting. He said the best Qi kung is good cardio workout.

I know the “self proclaimed Grandmaster of Wing Chun” William Chueng has added Qi kung to his “traditional” Wing Chun. Other Styles(mainland) of Wing Chun may use Qi kung allot.

Yip Man did teach Qi Gung it did not originate with William Cheung.
 

yipman_sifu

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Yip Man did teach Qi Gung it did not originate with William Cheung.

Wing Chun takes whatever is useful. The internal aspects is there, it can be from the Sui lim Tao. As it is not just an external method of stretching arms and crossing them. it gives you balance and stability, above that it teaches you how to deliver the full impact in a short distance.

Regarding William cheung. Please, this Sifu with all my respect to his system, claims everything to be his. Facts and stories like bcbernam said, proves that Yipman trained in internal aspects. this includes the story when he challenged his friends to tie his legs by a rope and start pulling him. His friends tried to pull him, but Yipman was like a solid rock, they couldn't move him a single inch.
 

Xue Sheng

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Almost all CMA styles have an internal (Nèijiā) aspect by the Qigong definition but there are only a few of those called internal styles; Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa and possibly Yiquan. It is not just the Qigong aspect that labels something internal or external. You may also notice those are all Northern styles based in Taoism as well.

Part of the definition of internal external has to do with origin. Internal having its roots in Taoism which is internal (indigenous) to China. If the roots are not is Taoism than it is not internal. External such as arts based in Buddhism which are external to (from outside of) china are external arts.

I am sorry but Wing Chun is not an internal style, and by your definition (Buddhist nun) it is not an internal style.

This is not saying anything is better or worse just not internal. I also train Sanda and it is extremely external (Wàijiā) and yet it is from multiple CMA styles and has on a few ocassionis reminded me of Xingyi training as well as Long Fist.


Nèijiā http://www.answers.com/topic/neijia
 

yipman_sifu

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Almost all CMA styles have an internal (Nèijiā) aspect by the Qigong definition but there are only a few of those called internal styles; Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa and possibly Yiquan. It is not just the Qigong aspect that labels something internal or external. You may also notice those are all Northern styles based in Taoism as well.

Part of the definition of internal external has to do with origin. Internal having its roots in Taoism which is internal (indigenous) to China. If the roots are not is Taoism than it is not internal. External such as arts based in Buddhism which are external to (from outside of) china are external arts.

I am sorry but Wing Chun is not an internal style, and by your definition (Buddhist nun) it is not an internal style.

This is not saying anything is better or worse just not internal. I also train Sanda and it is extremely external (Wàijiā) and yet it is from multiple CMA styles and has on a few ocassionis reminded me of Xingyi training as well as Long Fist.


Nèijiā
[URL]http://www.answers.com/topic/neijia
[/URL]

Sanda?, you mean the Chinese version of MMA. Let me tell you something. those external combative sport techniques are not that effective in a real fight. Especially the size matters alot in those fights. Wing Chun is a soft fighting method, as it borrowes force and it is hitting vital areas of the body. Training in one thing and being good at it will make you a better fighter and more capable of your moves than this cross-training stuff. One of my dreams is to find a good TaiChi instructor and learn, as it is a development skill that I like, in which the older you are, the more experience and stability you gain, and you find it a sort of a complete art of fighting, same goes to Wing Chun.
 

Xue Sheng

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Sanda?, you mean the Chinese version of MMA. Let me tell you something. those external combative sport techniques are not that effective in a real fight. Especially the size matters alot in those fights. Wing Chun is a soft fighting method, as it borrowes force and it is hitting vital areas of the body. Training in one thing and being good at it will make you a better fighter and more capable of your moves than this cross-training stuff. One of my dreams is to find a good TaiChi instructor and learn, as it is a development skill that I like, in which the older you are, the more experience and stability you gain, and you find it a sort of a complete art of fighting, same goes to Wing Chun.


First your response has nothing to do with the topic of the post

Second it was used as an example I am NOT saying it is better than wing chun and before you turn this into a sport MA verses non-sport thing you might want to familiarize yourself with Sanda is, you obviously only know one aspect of it. It is not a Chinese version of MMA it comes from and is still trained by the military. The sports version came later

Look here
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38089

And further more I do not train the sports version. And in further response to your post I have trained Yang Tai Chi for 12 years and I am now training Chen. I also train Sanda, I did at one time train Wing Chun too and I have been considering a return to it but I was offered the Sanda (non-sport version).

For crying out loud why is EVERYONE trying to turn every single post into a TMA vs. MMA thing
 

bcbernam777

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Almost all CMA styles have an internal (Nèijiā) aspect by the Qigong definition but there are only a few of those called internal styles; Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa and possibly Yiquan. It is not just the Qigong aspect that labels something internal or external. You may also notice those are all Northern styles based in Taoism as well.

Part of the definition of internal external has to do with origin. Internal having its roots in Taoism which is internal (indigenous) to China. If the roots are not is Taoism than it is not internal. External such as arts based in Buddhism which are external to (from outside of) china are external arts.

I am sorry but Wing Chun is not an internal style, and by your definition (Buddhist nun) it is not an internal style.

This is not saying anything is better or worse just not internal. I also train Sanda and it is extremely external (Wàijiā) and yet it is from multiple CMA styles and has on a few ocassionis reminded me of Xingyi training as well as Long Fist.


Nèijiā
http://www.answers.com/topic/neijia


This distillation of hard/soft external/internal is mere semantics. Of course there are elements of both no matter the system you study, it depends on what is more heavily emphasised in the art or rather the balance that is maintained in the system you study. WC (real WC) has a blend of both internal and external, and saying that it comes down to its roots is not entirely acurate. WC was a distilation of more effecient ways of fighting from the shaolin, and does not therefore share its same external elements. Yet even Shaolin contains elements of internal. Wing Chun is neither internal or external, it is both, and it is simply Wing Chun.
 

Xue Sheng

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This distillation of hard/soft external/internal is mere semantics. Of course there are elements of both no matter the system you study, it depends on what is more heavily emphasised in the art or rather the balance that is maintained in the system you study. WC (real WC) has a blend of both internal and external, and saying that it comes down to its roots is not entirely acurate. WC was a distilation of more effecient ways of fighting from the shaolin, and does not therefore share its same external elements. Yet even Shaolin contains elements of internal. Wing Chun is neither internal or external, it is both, and it is simply Wing Chun.

I am not sure how to respond to this or even if I need to but...

I am not saying anything is better or worse than anything else.

Also historically and by definition it is not semantics.

And I do not understand the issue but the truth is that WC is not considered an internal MA.

And to add, who cares.

WC is a very good MA and I rather liked it back when I trained it, but it still is not an internal MA. The definition of internal MA has to do with how the Qi is focused and used as well as were the root of the MA comes from.

WC is incredibly good and efficient CMA and whether or not it is considered internal, external, both or neither does not change that fact.
 

bcbernam777

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I am not sure how to respond to this or even if I need to but...

I am not saying anything is better or worse than anything else.

Also historically and by definition it is not semantics.

And I do not understand the issue but the truth is that WC is not considered an internal MA.

And to add, who cares.

WC is a very good MA and I rather liked it back when I trained it, but it still is not an internal MA. The definition of internal MA has to do with how the Qi is focused and used as well as were the root of the MA comes from.

WC is incredibly good and efficient CMA and whether or not it is considered internal, external, both or neither does not change that fact.


There is a strong element of Qi that is utilised in Wing Chun.
 

Xue Sheng

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There is a strong element of Qi that is utilised in Wing Chun.

I am not disputing that, there is a strong element of Qi utilized in just about all CMA style, as my first post in this thread states. But it is not just the study, use of or elements of Qi in a style that makes it internal. If that were the case than all CMA styles would be internal.

Once again I do not see the issue here. I am incredibly impressed with the directness, power and practicality of Wing Chun. I would also say the simplicity of it, but I really do not mean to say it is simple or easy it just seems less embellished if you will. But still it is not an internal CMA that is all.

Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Liu he ba fa and possibly yiquan are internals but Wing Chin isn't. I am sorry if that upsets some people but it is fact that is all.

What is, is.
 

bcbernam777

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I am not disputing that, there is a strong element of Qi utilized in just about all CMA style, as my first post in this thread states. But it is not just the study, use of or elements of Qi in a style that makes it internal. If that were the case than all CMA styles would be internal.

Once again I do not see the issue here. I am incredibly impressed with the directness, power and practicality of Wing Chun. I would also say the simplicity of it, but I really do not mean to say it is simple or easy it just seems less embellished if you will. But still it is not an internal CMA that is all.

Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Liu he ba fa and possibly yiquan are internals but Wing Chin isn't. I am sorry if that upsets some people but it is fact that is all.

What is, is.


I understand what you are saying, all I am simply saying is that you cannot simply lum everything into catagories like that. Infact the heart and soul of the Tao (Ying Yang) the very symbol you have on your avatar, is that it is not simply Yin or Yan but it is both working in harmony with one another with a continual interplay between the two. Bruce Lee was also very critical of those who said "this style is hard and this style is soft or this style is internal or this ones external" he said that any one who held such a position misinterpreted the meaning of the true essence of Ying/Yang. In my own personal experiance, Wing chun (real Wing Chun) is the perfect balance of the two forces, and seeks to find harmony in both. As for being important, if it is not that important why is it that people so staunchly hold on to their assertions that their style is hard or soft. People tend to get consfused about these things.
 

Xue Sheng

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I understand what you are saying, all I am simply saying is that you cannot simply lum everything into catagories like that. Infact the heart and soul of the Tao (Ying Yang) the very symbol you have on your avatar, is that it is not simply Yin or Yan but it is both working in harmony with one another with a continual interplay between the two. Bruce Lee was also very critical of those who said "this style is hard and this style is soft or this style is internal or this ones external" he said that any one who held such a position misinterpreted the meaning of the true essence of Ying/Yang. In my own personal experiance, Wing chun (real Wing Chun) is the perfect balance of the two forces, and seeks to find harmony in both. As for being important, if it is not that important why is it that people so staunchly hold on to their assertions that their style is hard or soft. People tend to get consfused about these things.

Unless of course you are using a historical definition such as I am that refers to internal styles as those with a root in Taoism.

And Yin/Yang and balance are not part if the historical definition.

All CMA styles seek balance of Yin and Yang but not all styles of CMA are considered internal styles.

And I am not disagreeing that Wing Chun seeks balance, it obviously does, but it still does not make it an Internal style of CMA.

But to be honest this is going the way of the MMA vs. TMA stuff and I do not understand why it is, nor do I understand the need to call Wing Chun an internal martial art. I am not excluding it by some elitist attitude I am just going with the historical definition based on Taoism and the way Qi is trained, that is all. I am not overly concerned about it; it is simply historic Chinese fact that is all. Just the same as not all CMA styles come from Shaolin as others claim from time to time.

The concern with what is internal and what is external is pointless all are martial arts, and to quote Bruce lee "What is, is."
 

7starmantis

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So why the discussion then? Who cares what one calls their style? If one refers to a certain style as internal, external, blue, red, white, or froggy....who cares? As they say, the proof is in the pudding.....

7sm
 

bcbernam777

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I agree with 7 star, my art is what it is, if you dont agree, then thats your opinion.
 

Xue Sheng

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So why the discussion then? Who cares what one calls their style? If one refers to a certain style as internal, external, blue, red, white, or froggy....who cares? As they say, the proof is in the pudding.....

7sm

I frankly do not care if they decide to call Wing Chun Steve and say Steve Allen invented it. But it would still be Wing Chun most likely from Yip Mann. If they whish to call it internal then feel free to do so but the bottom-line is that it is not an internal CMA it is an external CMA I am sorry if the facts offend some but they are still the facts.

The entire post was started because the original poster was told in another post it was not internal and it is not but if he wish to go tell everyone it is internal so be it, he is wrong but that is no concern of mine. If however someone walks up to me and says Wing Chun is internal I will continue to tell them no it isn't.

Internal, external both are equally effective I do not understand what the desire is to have it listed as an internal style but then I have had enough of this call it what you will, just don't expect me to agree.
 

ed-swckf

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I agree with 7 star, my art is what it is, if you dont agree, then thats your opinion.

Yeah but you both have opinions, one is based on this historical aspect of what makes something internal. I for one am interested in hearing more about this.
 

ed-swckf

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I frankly do not care if they decide to call Wing Chun Steve and say Steve Allen invented it. But it would still be Wing Chun most likely from Yip Mann. If they whish to call it internal then feel free to do so but the bottom-line is that it is not an internal CMA it is an external CMA I am sorry if the facts offend some but they are still the facts.

The entire post was started because the original poster was told in another post it was not internal and it is not but if he wish to go tell everyone it is internal so be it, he is wrong but that is no concern of mine. If however someone walks up to me and says Wing Chun is internal I will continue to tell them no it isn't.

Internal, external both are equally effective I do not understand what the desire is to have it listed as an internal style but then I have had enough of this call it what you will, just don't expect me to agree.

Hi, i've trained in steve for quite a while now, in fact i have just come back from doing steve! I have always considered it to be both external and internal, particularly the first form. It would seem that you feel steve is purely external, so i was wondering what qualities you believe are required to make something internal? I feel it would be benificial to better understanding hwo this misconception of steve being both if that is a misconception. If its not perhaps we could shed light on why people suggest steve to be both.
 

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