was i wrong

[Jason Shirley]

its been a while,i remember going to a tournament and competed i was disqaulified in that for contact another that i was competing with was throwing a very hard jumping side blade kick. wich i dodged many times.when finally all i did was merly side step him and threw a weak side blade kick as he went by through the air of course it it found its mark just under the ribs and above his hip.it propelled him outside the circle it did stun him momentarly. i was under the impression it was his forward motion being slightly redirected that propelled him so far.my kick was quick but not hard.the judges made their disecion which i did not argue with.they said it was exsive cantact on my part.even though he was jumping through the air with a big kick.i could of swept him but it would of felt hard to me to do so.any comments on this ? we where both orangebelts at the time.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well since I was not there it would be hard to tell.:idunno: However I will say that I am really happy that you have decided to join MartialTalk!

 

[Blindside]

Sounds like poor judging to me, but without being there it is pretty hard to tell. I've worked enough as a center in point tournaments to see that alot of judges will swallow their whistle on hard body contact. Your rules might be more stringent or just have a really strict judge.

Welcome to MT!

 

[Jade Tigress]

Mod Note

Thread Moved to General Martial Arts Forum in order to generate a better response.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator

 

[Laurentkd]

Looks like your style is Kempo I know nothing about the rules for sparring in Kempo tournaments (assuming that's what you were doing here).

The title of your threadis "Was I Wrong"

Here is my question: Were you aware that excessive contact would get you disqualified?
And then: Did you intentionally hit your opponent with excessive contact?

A no to either of these would clearly mean you were not "wrong"
Sure, you might have broken a rule, but to me that is totally different than being wrong in your actions. you were playing a game, and that's the way it goes sometimes.

From a Taekwondo stand point- If I was a coach I would be irratated at that judge's decision. I don't know how old you are, but assuming you are an adult basically full contact to the body is pretty much expected.

Sounds like you just got a bad draw on the judge (from my limited perspective). Sometimes it goes that way, just like any other sport.

Did you compete any after that tournament? How did those go?

 

[IWishToLearn]

Sigh. One of the reasons I hate tournaments. If that indeed is what happened, I'd say you were more than fair with what you did. There are always two sides to every coin, however. Politics suck.

 

[Haze]

Only the judges can call it. You felt it was ok, they thought other wise. No right, no wrong, just different oppinions.

One question though, how were you going to sweep him if it was a jump kick and he had no feet on the ground to sweep?

 

[tshadowchaser]

Tournaments are like that sometimes. It is strictly a judgment call on the part of the judges and we (those who compete) are at their mercy. Take it as a learning experience and learn from it and have fun at the next tournament

 

[Steel Tiger]

its been a while,i remember going to a tournament and competed i was disqaulified in that for contact another that i was competing with was throwing a very hard jumping side blade kick. wich i dodged many times.when finally all i did was merly side step him and threw a weak side blade kick as he went by through the air of course it it found its mark just under the ribs and above his hip.it propelled him outside the circle it did stun him momentarly. i was under the impression it was his forward motion being slightly redirected that propelled him so far.my kick was quick but not hard.the judges made their disecion which i did not argue with.they said it was exsive cantact on my part.even though he was jumping through the air with a big kick.i could of swept him but it would of felt hard to me to do so.any comments on this ? we where both orangebelts at the time.

A basic understanding of physics would have made the decision different. The fact that your opponent was flying through the air is what made your kick look worse than it was. If he had been on the ground he probably wouldn't have moved at all (except to maybe double over), but being in the air with much less resistance he was catapulted sideways.

 

[Touch Of Death]

its been a while,i remember going to a tournament and competed i was disqaulified in that for contact another that i was competing with was throwing a very hard jumping side blade kick. wich i dodged many times.when finally all i did was merly side step him and threw a weak side blade kick as he went by through the air of course it it found its mark just under the ribs and above his hip.it propelled him outside the circle it did stun him momentarly. i was under the impression it was his forward motion being slightly redirected that propelled him so far.my kick was quick but not hard.the judges made their disecion which i did not argue with.they said it was exsive cantact on my part.even though he was jumping through the air with a big kick.i could of swept him but it would of felt hard to me to do so.any comments on this ? we where both orangebelts at the time.

Still, you could have hurt the guy really bad. His bad technique is no excuse for, you hurting him. When you capitilize on bad technique in a tournament situation, your obligation to show control has increased so much so that at orange belt you may not have been ready to take the point. So yes, you were wrong.
Sean

 

[Adept]

I blame the tournament rules. Contact should never be limited.

 

[Last Fearner]

As some have pointed out, only the judges who witnessed this can accurately assess the amount of contact used, and whether or not it violated the rules of this particular tournament. It is true that "bad calls" by tournament officials happens, but I do not like to second guess judges, especially if I did not see it happen, and I do not encourage my students to do so. I have officiated at tournaments for 30 years, including the Taekwondo Jr. Olympics, and Sr. Nationals, where any dispute of a center referee's call must be done in writing (formal protest form), and only by a certified coach. Competitors are often of the opinion that they were "robbed" by bad judging, but in many cases, the officials are highly trained, and know a lot better as to why certain calls were made.

It is a contest, and there are rules for a reason - - so that students at varying skill levels can challenge themselves, grow, and learn without unnecessary risk of serious injury or death. Those of us who are familiar with the potential of unchecked, and unrestrained full contact will know that "full contact" kills and maims, even when full sparring gear is worn. There must be rules, and restricted contact to protect life and limb, and to help make tournaments enjoyable so that more people will participate. Your contact might not have been that excessive, but a line is drawn far from the point of being dangerous so as to leave plenty of room for error.

Were you wrong? About what? For throwing the side kick with the amount of force you used, or for disagreeing with the judges in your own mind. As for the contact, it would appear (by the judges' call) that there was a rule in effect which restricted "excessive contact." What constitutes "excessive" is left to the discretion of the trained officials, and usually pre-determined by the tournament director, referee chairman, or organizing committee as to what standard of safety they wish to enforce.

While one referee or a single judge might use poor judgment on a particular call, you seem to have indicated that it was more than one judge, thus a consensus of the officials agreed that the contact was excessive.

the judges made their disecion which i did not argue with.they said it was exsive cantact on my part.

There is your ruling. Now, why might they have felt it was "excessive?"

it it found its mark just under the ribs and above his hip.it propelled him outside the circle it did stun him momentarly.

If the "weak side blade kick" you threw, coupled with the momentum of your attacker, "propelled him outside the circle" and stunned him momentarily, then it must have been sufficient power to cause that effect.

i was under the impression it was his forward motion being slightly redirected that propelled him so far.my kick was quick but not hard.

Perhaps you are correct on this fact, however since your opponent was in the air, the amount of force you choose to apply must take into consideration their momentum. If you are throwing a side kick, and your opponent negligently rushes into it and receives an excess of impact, it is usually deemed as their own fault, but you should still try to control the amount of force you exert in that case. With an airborne attacker, a very small amount of force is all that is necessary to show you could have broken his ribs. Your force was apparently enough to displace his body (which might have been easy to do), but it was more than the judges felt was appropriate.

Judge's discretion! Thus, it would be futile to argue the point. You could disagree, but there really is no point. If you want to be able to apply more contact in competition, then enter tournaments that allow more contact. Of course, the fact that you were orange belts might have caused concern among the judges (ages of the competitors is also an issue). Black Belt competition is often more lenient on this type of contact.

Don't view it as right or wrong, just that you used an amount of contact with your kick which resulted in an impact to your opponent's forward moving body that the judges felt was not safe, thus "excessive" for your rank at this particular tournament. On the other hand, if you had become upset, thrown a fit, ranted, and argued with the judges, then I would say that you would have been wrong. I've disqualified a few competitors for those kinds of actions, or the same conduct coming from their coach (which is against Olympic rules).

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[KempoGuy06]

Like most people said without being there I would have no idea. But it sounds like from your description in the match that you were not in the wrong.

B

 

[Laurentkd]

Black Belt competition is often more lenient on this type of contact.

Don't view it as right or wrong, just that you used an amount of contact with your kick which resulted in an impact to your opponent's forward moving body that the judges felt was not safe, thus "excessive" for your rank at this particular tournament. On the other hand, if you had become upset, thrown a fit, ranted, and argued with the judges, then I would say that you would have been wrong. I've disqualified a few competitors for those kinds of actions, or the same conduct coming from their coach (which is against Olympic rules).

CM D.J. Eisenhart

Ah HA!! This is what I was trying to get at, while you managed to communicate it exactly.
Because it was not intentional, and because you reacted in an appropriate way, I don't think you were "wrong." You just played a game and had to play by the rules set and enforced by the event.

 

[zDom]

its been a while,i remember going to a tournament and competed i was disqaulified in that for contact another that i was competing with was throwing a very hard jumping side blade kick. wich i dodged many times.when finally all i did was merly side step him and threw a weak side blade kick as he went by through the air of course it it found its mark just under the ribs and above his hip.it propelled him outside the circle it did stun him momentarly. i was under the impression it was his forward motion being slightly redirected that propelled him so far.my kick was quick but not hard.the judges made their disecion which i did not argue with.they said it was exsive cantact on my part.even though he was jumping through the air with a big kick.i could of swept him but it would of felt hard to me to do so.any comments on this ? we where both orangebelts at the time.

Were you wrong? Nope — you accept the decision without argument

Was the contact excessive? Probably. You have to consider their forward momentum INTO your kick, not just the power you put into it.

As mentioned above, don't sweat calls by the judges — they do their best to be fair, but sometimes things look different from a judge's corner than they do across the ring from your opponent.

I once got disqualified by for TKO'ing my opponent during a point-style match.

The funny thing was, I didn't punch him in the head. He RAN INTO my focus hand! That's right, it wasn't even a PUNCH! I had just extended my left arm in front of me as I chambered my right hand for a punch and he impaled himself on it, almost knocking himself completely out on it in his rush toward me!!

I was taught extending the focus hand was good technique as it can, in cases just like this, keep an opponent at a distance for your imminent punch but I never dreamed someone would actually knock themselves out on it!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

you weren't wrong to throw that kick. you're a little bit wrong to question the judge. i would say you're doing yourself a disservice by still worrying about it.


remember, it's a sport. that kick was an effective reaction to the attack you saw coming at you. just because it was against the rules of that particular tournament doesn't mean you made a mistake. shake it off, no big deal. even pro athletes get foul calls for letting their natural instincts override the rules of the game.

the judge was right. even when the judge is wrong, the judge is right. that's one of the basic precepts of organized sport. as adults, its our job to subsume our egos and tempers and model that for the kids at the tourney. i see too much arguing at tournaments these days. bad calls by the ref are a part of competition -- and an opportunity to learn and display grace under fire.

so shake it off. you weren't wrong and neither was the judge. you'll have other chances for the gold.

 

[jks9199]

Competition is a game, and you've got to play by the rules.

I'm not going to question the judges's ruling; based on your description, at a minimum it seems to have been unintended hard contact. Some rules don't distinguish between intential and accidental contact; others do. Sometimes, the question of intent is a very, very subjective decision on the part of the judges.

All you can do at this point is learn from this, and learn the rules.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I blame the tournament rules. Contact should never be limited.

So much for control.
sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Were you wrong? Nope — you accept the decision without argument

Was the contact excessive? Probably. You have to consider their forward momentum INTO your kick, not just the power you put into it.

As mentioned above, don't sweat calls by the judges — they do their best to be fair, but sometimes things look different from a judge's corner than they do across the ring from your opponent.

I once got disqualified by for TKO'ing my opponent during a point-style match.

The funny thing was, I didn't punch him in the head. He RAN INTO my focus hand! That's right, it wasn't even a PUNCH! I had just extended my left arm in front of me as I chambered my right hand for a punch and he impaled himself on it, almost knocking himself completely out on it in his rush toward me!!

I was taught extending the focus hand was good technique as it can, in cases just like this, keep an opponent at a distance for your imminent punch but I never dreamed someone would actually knock themselves out on it!

Sounds like a punch to me.
Sean

 

[zDom]

Sounds like a punch to me.
Sean

May have even LOOKED like one to the judges, and the result was the same. But it wasn't a punch.

The mechanics were not that of a punch. It was simply the arm coming forward in a straight position as the hip was drawn back on the other side, with no intention to strike the other person.

FWIW, I didn't question the judges decision. But I DO know there was no intention on my part — I was concentrating on the reverse punch to his body I was about to throw.