Video Posting and Ettiquette...

[Flying Crane]

The topic for this thread came about due to a discussion on another thread, it seemed worthy of a discussion of its own so I am initiating that here.

Youtube and other web based sites for posting video have proven themselves so far to be both easy to use and quite popular. Just about everything and anything it seems, can get posted. And with new technologies like cellphones that have cameras and video cameras built right on them, capturing video is becoming easier and easier. If you scratch your butt or pick your nose at the bus stop, someone just might capture that on video and post it on Youtube.

These sites are proving popular for martial arts videos as well. They are commonly linked-to here on Martialtalk, as people show their stuff or post clips from training sessions or seminars or camps or whatever. It's been a great way to share with others, and we can even get critiques and (constructive) criticisms from our peers here on Martialtalk.

But what I would like to see a discussion on is the actual ettiquette around deciding what to post, and what not to post. Sometimes a video gets posted because a certain famous person is spotlighted in that video. It's great for others to see that person, especially when we may never have had a chance to meet him.

But there are usually others in those videos as well. Maybe someone in the video comes off looking lousy or inept, and maybe this is a very inaccurate and unfair profile for this person who might have just been having a bad day. Maybe someone who is on the video is just very private and personal about their training, and would prefer the video not be posted where literally the entire world can look at it. Some of these videos were made years ago, before sites like Youtube even existed. At that time it was assumed the video would only be shared among a very limited group of people. Suddenly the entire world is invited to share in viewing the video. This might make some people uncomfortable.

Do we have an obligation (legally or morally or ethically? or just plain courtesy?) to sort of check around and make sure all the recognizable players in the video don't object to it being posted? I am operating on the assumption that the video itself is not protected by any copyrights that would prohibit its being posted in the first place.

Ettiquette around the use of cell phones in public has taken some time for the general public to figure out, maybe there is a similar issue with posting video? It's a very new tool, maybe we haven't yet figured out the proper ettiquette, manners and courtesy that should go along with using it.

What do you all think?

 

[terryl965]

First off great topic

With that being said I have two problems with the whole video and camera taken in general,When people take pictures of my childern without any permission it pissy me off, I should have a right to who and when I want pictures of my kids what give an individual the right to take this pictures without my permission.

Second it is not against the law for this to happen but yet people take these photos and go home and use tprograms to put there faces on other people body and then post them like they are actually doing this so is this morily right no not at all but it is done all the time.

I first ask all people involved if it is OK to post pics if there child is in it even from a tournament if I take a photo of one of my players I always ask if it is ok to post these pics on my website or in my school if the parent objects to it then it just stay in a folders with all others this is just me though I feel I should do what I expect others to do as well, does this happen alway no.

Flying crane like I said great topic but unfortunite people really do not care about other people for the most part, it is a sad sad world we live in.

 

[Jenna]

The topic for this thread came about due to a discussion on another thread, it seemed worthy of a discussion of its own so I am initiating that here.

Hey FC I think this is bang on the money.. and as Terry has said I think it is also an indictment of how little we as a society actually care as well as showing the prevalence -on a martial arts scale- of celebrity and moreover the absurd niche of the celebrity faux pas..

I think you are absolutely right insofar as there should be an obligation upon decent martial artists to engage in some self-censorship and I know we cannot stop what happens on the net any more than the most powerful government agency but at the same time that does not mean that we should condone these videos by encouraging their proliferation onsite.. anyways.. that sounds all ranty.. but there is so much bullying, assault and worse captured on video fones for pure voyeurism here in London recently that I find it disturbing that we have a variant within the arts.. it is pathetic.. sorry..

An interesting topic though! Well done for raising it.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Sukerkin]

A definite topic for conversation over a few beers this one. I have found myself starting to respond to some of the nonsense on YouTube recently because of the bad impression of 'proper' martial arts (particularly sword arts) such footage gives.

However, I had not even thought of the issue of privacy invasion that some videos of MA might represent. I concur that it behoves those of us who are serious about the etiquette and traditions of our arts to give this matter a moment or two of consideration.

Well done for bringing it up, FC :tup:.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

But there are usually others in those videos as well. (1) Maybe someone in the video comes off looking lousy or inept, and (2) maybe this is a very inaccurate and unfair profile for this person who might have just been having a bad day. (3) Maybe someone who is on the video is just very private and personal about their training, and would prefer the video not be posted where literally the entire world can look at it. (4) Some of these videos were made years ago, before sites like Youtube even existed. (5) At that time it was assumed the video would only be shared among a very limited group of people. Suddenly the entire world is invited to share in viewing the video. (6) This might make some people uncomfortable.

Hey Michael! Since you're getting agreeable responses so far or neutral ones I'll play Devil's Advocate and see if we can get this discussion rolling :asian:

1) We all look lousy and inept at some point in our training. As martial artists both the critics and the criticized should be aware of this. A video that lasts a few seconds (or 10:59 for youtube's default maximum) shouldn't be used as a sole indicator of someone's skill, EVER.

2) Exactly. People need to think and realize this. There is a video of Ed Parker falling down during a demo on youtube. No one is looking at that video and saying "Ed Parker sucks he can't even stand up". Give that same curtousy to other "lesser" mortals. There is also a similar demo clip where Larry Tatum falls down.

3) Being private is the opposite of being on video. In many videos the camera is obviously set up on a tripod and there are numerous spectators seen in the background. Privacy? with spectators? and a mounted camera? How private can that be?

4) People need to realize this too. Video is just a snapshot of a small piece of time. Look at videos of Ed Parker from the 60's and then from the 70's, 60's and 90's. Which one's look more impressive to you? He moves differently in each era. Also notice I said "to you". People need to realize that opinions are just that, not facts. Someone sees a video of you a decade ago and says you suck? But now you're light years better than ten years ago and have hundreds of active students. Does that negative opinion really carry weight on the grand scheme of things?

5) You know what they say about assumptions. If you don't have the SOLE copy of the video in your possession then don't assume it isn't going to resurface or showup in places you never thought of. There are few absolutes in the world.

6) How much do you value yourself versus how much you value others perspectives of you. The answers to this question will yield how uncomfortable you will be with others seeing you perform...video or otherwise.

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this post are in no way associated with Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu. Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu assumes no liability for persons offended or attempting to be offended by the contents of this post. The views expressed in this post are solely hypothetical and represent no likeness to any situation that actually happened. Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu is a proud member of the P.A.V.E. family of organizations (Posters Against Video Evaluations and People Advocating Video Ethics)

Sorry couldn't help myself Michael.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hey Michael! Since you're getting agreeable responses so far or neutral ones I'll play Devil's Advocate and see if we can get this discussion rolling :asian:

oh, i'm not surprised

1) We all look lousy and inept at some point in our training. As martial artists both the critics and the criticized should be aware of this. A video that lasts a few seconds (or 10:59 for youtube's default maximum) shouldn't be used as a sole indicator of someone's skill, EVER.

2) Exactly. People need to think and realize this. There is a video of Ed Parker falling down during a demo on youtube. No one is looking at that video and saying "Ed Parker sucks he can't even stand up". Give that same curtousy to other "lesser" mortals. There is also a similar demo clip where Larry Tatum falls down.

Full agreement.

3) Being private is the opposite of being on video. In many videos the camera is obviously set up on a tripod and there are numerous spectators seen in the background. Privacy? with spectators? and a mounted camera? How private can that be?

true, but it might have originally been intended only for those in attendance, for example attendees at a seminar. For that small group it might have been understood that it would be shared. But posting it for the world to see is taking it to a very different level, and if the attendees had known that might happen, they might have chosen to not be in front of the camera. Esp. with the older stuff done before Youtube. It wasn't even a possibility, nobody forsaw that it could happen, it was a reasonable assumption that the video wouldn't circulate farther than the addendees, and perhaps their own students and training circle.

4) People need to realize this too. Video is just a snapshot of a small piece of time. Look at videos of Ed Parker from the 60's and then from the 70's, 60's and 90's. Which one's look more impressive to you? He moves differently in each era. Also notice I said "to you". People need to realize that opinions are just that, not facts. Someone sees a video of you a decade ago and says you suck? But now you're light years better than ten years ago and have hundreds of active students. Does that negative opinion really carry weight on the grand scheme of things?

well, sometimes the viewer doesn't realize that the video was old. They might see some guy on the video, decide he sucks (I know, I know, nobody should make an opinion based on a 30 second video, but it happens), and suddenly they have a skewed vision of a whole branch of an art. Maybe that doesn't matter, maybe it does. Someone might ask his opinion of an instructor because they are thinking of training with him. It could affect the response, and might be spreading inaccurate info.

5) You know what they say about assumptions. If you don't have the SOLE copy of the video in your possession then don't assume it isn't going to resurface or showup in places you never thought of. There are few absolutes in the world.

yes, this is also very true, moreso today with the easy access to posting videos and stuff. Not quite so likely 15 or 20 years ago, however. Technology has advanced very very rapidly in the last decade, sometimes we need to stop for a moment and consider some basic etiquette and manners, maybe just because we CAN do something, it doesn't mean we SHOULD.

6) How much do you value yourself versus how much you value others perspectives of you. The answers to this question will yield how uncomfortable you will be with others seeing you perform...video or otherwise.

also true.

I'm not saying people should not post videos. I do, however, believe that with new technology comes a new set of responsibilities and it often takes a little time to figure out just what those responsibilities are. So I'm trying to stimulate and encourage people to take a moment and think about that. Maybe none of what I am saying matters, but maybe it does. Just wanted to put it on the table.

I tried to break up your post into sections, I'm not sure if I figured out how to do that just right. Incase I screwed it up, my responses are in bold.

edit: hey, looks like I figured it out! WOO HOO!

 

[Ninjamom]

Great thread, and great discussion, folks!

One up-side to the advent of YouTube, it does give the original owner of a video more control over access to and distribution of the video clips. In 'olden times' (i.e., three years ago), if you wanted to share a video clip, you would upload a .mpg, .avi, .mov, or .wmv file to your website. Then, anyone in the world could view it, download it, save it, re-post it, and/or redistribute it. With YouTube, you can retain some control over it, since (I don't think) you can (yet) download the YouTube clip in a decoded, useful format (although given time, I'm sure that will change).

Along those lines, I would like to recommend that we as a community take one small step towards respecting privacy of others in videos: for those videos that are NOT on YouTube, but still are in other formats, could we all please agree to link to the original hosting website, rather than downloading and re-uploading/archiving the video? That way, if the original video clip 'owner' decides there is some reason they would prefer their video no longer be seen, they would have the chance to remove it from their website, and simultaneously remove it from all posts/websites that have linked to it, as well.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Great thread, and great discussion, folks!

One up-side to the advent of YouTube, it does give the original owner of a video more control over access to and distribution of the video clips. In 'olden times' (i.e., three years ago), if you wanted to share a video clip, you would upload a .mpg, .avi, .mov, or .wmv file to your website. Then, anyone in the world could view it, download it, save it, re-post it, and/or redistribute it. With YouTube, you can retain some control over it, since (I don't think) you can (yet) download the YouTube clip in a decoded, useful format (although given time, I'm sure that will change).

Along those lines, I would like to recommend that we as a community take one small step towards respecting privacy of others in videos: for those videos that are NOT on YouTube, but still are in other formats, could we all please agree to link to the original hosting website, rather than downloading and re-uploading/archiving the video? That way, if the original video clip 'owner' decides there is some reason they would prefer their video no longer be seen, they would have the chance to remove it from their website, and simultaneously remove it from all posts/websites that have linked to it, as well.

Too late, this can be done now

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

oh, i'm not surprised

......

Good stuff. I can't give you another rep point because I "have to spread it around" At any rate we're playing tennis here and some of the views are my own and some are just the flip side for discussion but not many others appear to be joining in yet. I'll wait a bit before tossing the next volley! This is a necessary and relevant topic.

 

[Touch Of Death]

By the way, all videos of me in existence are old and outdated.
Sean

 

[zDom]

1) We all look lousy and inept at some point in our training. As martial artists both the critics and the criticized should be aware of this. A video that lasts a few seconds (or 10:59 for youtube's default maximum) shouldn't be used as a sole indicator of someone's skill, EVER.

Great point.

Not too long ago, my instructor pointed out that when two very skilled fighters are fighting each other, the resulting match usually doesn't have the "pretty" techniques that a mismatch has, for example.

The whole idea, after all, is to disrupt their attacks which has the side effect of making them look clumsy or awkward when you succeed.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

By the way, all videos of me in existence are old and outdated.
Sean

Nice disclaimer. I'm might start using that as quote.

 

[MALibrarian]

When it comes to martial arts videos posted online on a public forum (youtube, google or other seervices) before deciding on a reaction to them I tend to look at what the purpose of the video is. They seem to come in three flavors:

1) Hey buddy, watch this, it'll be funny: Fun, funny, embarrassing or the greatest practical joke ever. The good ones have the subject of the joke laughing along, the bad ones are a little too malicious.
Aside from saying "thanks for posting" or "that seemed a little mean" they're not worth commenting on.

2) How we done good: Recordings of special events including seminars, celebrations, demos etc.
These can be pretty cool, but if the video doesn't look good it's possible that the person is not highly skilled, or that they were having a bad day or that one of their assistants did something off. They can be fun to watch, but they're rarely (if ever) worth critiquing.

3) Tutorials: Explanations of techniques, ideas, concepts etc.
In my opinion, you generally have as many takes as you need to get it as close to perfect as you can get, so there is no excuse for a tutorial not showing the subject at his/her best. Asking questions/critiquing these seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[jks9199]

true, but it might have originally been intended only for those in attendance, for example attendees at a seminar. For that small group it might have been understood that it would be shared. But posting it for the world to see is taking it to a very different level, and if the attendees had known that might happen, they might have chosen to not be in front of the camera. Esp. with the older stuff done before Youtube. It wasn't even a possibility, nobody forsaw that it could happen, it was a reasonable assumption that the video wouldn't circulate farther than the addendees, and perhaps their own students and training circle.
...


yes, this is also very true, moreso today with the easy access to posting videos and stuff. Not quite so likely 15 or 20 years ago, however. Technology has advanced very very rapidly in the last decade, sometimes we need to stop for a moment and consider some basic etiquette and manners, maybe just because we CAN do something, it doesn't mean we SHOULD.

Long before the advent of YouTube and similar opportunities for sharing, my teacher set a rule when he taught that video taping was not allowed. He did this for several reasons; some personal, others instructional. I think he had a good idea. I've dealt with too many instances where people were so busy recording that they didn't pay attention -- or, even more annoyingly, where I had to move and adjust my position to make room for someone's video camera taping the clinic or seminar for people that couldn't be bothered to be there in person. And cameras miss things... I'm a big believer in taking notes, as is my teacher. But leave the cameras at home.

Today, thanks to YouTube and the rest, information that was intended for a particular group can be disseminated without the mediating judgement of a person who was there. I have lessons that I will not teach outside of a particular group; the material isn't "mine" to share, and I worked hard for many years to earn the opportunity to learn it. Imagine how frustrated I'd be if someone posted a video of that material tomorrow... Imagine how annoyed my instructor would be, as well.

And then there are the privacy issues, as well. I don't necessarily want to look at someone's YouTube posting and discover that I'm now an international star by accident just because I happened to be there when they made a video tape...