Vaccine Nation - A documentary on the danger of vaccines

[Makalakumu]

This movie is obviously biased against vaccines. However, I think it bears watching.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...KncSqyWOozYqAOGj5mGCg&q=vaccine+nation&hl=en#

How much truth is there to this? Are vaccines dangerous? Is there independent research that supports positions for and against vaccines? What do you think?

 

[Dirty Dog]

There have been a number of good studies looking at the issues raied in this video. They have all shown NO evidence to support these claims.

 

[Makalakumu]

There have been a number of good studies looking at the issues raied in this video. They have all shown NO evidence to support these claims.

This is a new movie, so I wonder why these issues keep coming up? Who performed these studies? Are they independent?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why do these issues keep coming up? Because in our litiginous society, ambulance chasing bottom feeders make a lot of money off this crap. Just look back at the lawsuits for diseases caused by breast implants (totally disproven) power line magenetic fields (totally disproven, and now they're selling magnets and claiming they'll solve all your problems), cell phones (totally disproven) etc etc etc.

The definitive studies have been done by the CDC, which is about as independent as you can get.

 

[Makalakumu]

The definitive studies have been done by the CDC, which is about as independent as you can get.

Before we throw all of our skepticism out of the window, understand that the CDC, the FDA, and the NIH have a revolving door policy with various corporate brass. You can work for Merck one day, resign and go to work for the government, quit and go back to work for Merck. There are plenty of conflicts of interests in government and the government has been caught red handed editing reports for ideologic reasons.

So, how much can you really trust what these organizations are reporting?

 

[jks9199]

Why do these issues keep coming up? Because in our litiginous society, ambulance chasing bottom feeders make a lot of money off this crap. Just look back at the lawsuits for diseases caused by breast implants (totally disproven) power line magenetic fields (totally disproven, and now they're selling magnets and claiming they'll solve all your problems), cell phones (totally disproven) etc etc etc.

The definitive studies have been done by the CDC, which is about as independent as you can get.

Don't forget a major failure to teach critical thinking skills and fundamental science...

 

[Makalakumu]

Don't forget a major failure to teach critical thinking skills and fundamental science...

It must be REALLY bad because all sorts of MDs and PhDs were interviewed for the movie. Including former heads of major governmental agencies...not like that's a big endorsement for being intelligent, but one would think they have an insider's perspective.

Here's the thing with science jks9199, when you start to really look at various studies you start to see a pattern of money flowing to those who produce results. I have a lot of friends who work in industry and they have very specific research limitations. It's cynical, but THAT is the way science is increasingly being done in the private and public sector.

It's a mistake to think that you can truly divulge yourself of all skepticism in regards to any issue.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So, how much can you really trust what these organizations are reporting?

I don't have to trust them. I've seen the studies and read the data, and trust my own education to allow me to reach a conclusion.

By your criteria, there is no such thing as an impartial study. All studies have to be paid for by somebody, so how do you KNOW that they don't bias the results?

 

[shesulsa]

The vaccine manufacturers themselves testified in front of congress that they cannot say with certainty that there are no neurotoxins in their vaccines and that these neurotoxins are not responsible for the epidemic of autism and other neurological disorders.

THEY SAID IT! THEY ... said it.

The hot lot for DTaP 7H81507 mentioned in the movie is the lot # for one of my son's shots. When I did research on that lot fourteen years ago, I found out it was a hot lot back then.

NOT the MMR, folks - the DTaP.

Watch the movie and let's discuss it.

 

[Xinglu]

I don't have to trust them. I've seen the studies and read the data, and trust my own education to allow me to reach a conclusion.

By your criteria, there is no such thing as an impartial study. All studies have to be paid for by somebody, so how do you KNOW that they don't bias the results?

Actually, study bias is nothing new. When I look at any study there are two factors I look at: who does it and who pays for it. Then if it is interpreted and written up in a journal I look at the author and his back ground to rule out bias. There are plenty of scientific studies on the lethality of long term use of NSAIDs. Yet they are still handed out like candy, because if the FDA banned their OTC usage then they lose $$$.

For example, the FDA recently changed their policy on drug reviews (potentially pulling them from the market) because of the NSAIDs ruling. Now if you have received more than $20k in benefits from the company in question that year you can't vote on it. That would have excluded 10 votes from the latest review. And of course all 10 in question voted to keep it on the market.

So let's not pretend that government agencies aren't subject to corporate bias or corruption.

 

[Archangel M]

An Epidemic of Fear: How Panicked Parents Skipping Shots Endangers Us All

 

[Archangel M]

The vaccine manufacturers themselves testified in front of congress that they cannot say with certainty that there are no neurotoxins in their vaccines and that these neurotoxins are not responsible for the epidemic of autism and other neurological disorders.

THEY SAID IT! THEY ... said it.

The hot lot for DTaP 7H81507 mentioned in the movie is the lot # for one of my son's shots. When I did research on that lot fourteen years ago, I found out it was a hot lot back then.

NOT the MMR, folks - the DTaP.

Watch the movie and let's discuss it.

How to win an argument about vaccines.

MYTH 1: Vaccines cause autism.
FACT: Until 2001, vaccines included thimerosal, a preservative containing ethylmercury. Mercury, of course, can cause neurological damage. But there’s scientific consensus that the amount once used in vaccines — around 50 micrograms per 0.5-ml dose — was far short of toxic. And autism rates have continued to climb, suggesting that there’s either a different cause or, more likely, that a better understanding of the condition has increased diagnoses. A comprehensive review of the research, conducted in 2004 by the prestigious Institute of Medicine, found no evidence of a connection between vaccines and autism. None.

 

[Archangel M]

It must be REALLY bad because all sorts of MDs and PhDs were interviewed for the movie. Including former heads of major governmental agencies...not like that's a big endorsement for being intelligent, but one would think they have an insider's perspective.

Here's the thing with science jks9199, when you start to really look at various studies you start to see a pattern of money flowing to those who produce results. I have a lot of friends who work in industry and they have very specific research limitations. It's cynical, but THAT is the way science is increasingly being done in the private and public sector.

It's a mistake to think that you can truly divulge yourself of all skepticism in regards to any issue.

I find it frustrating how (to some posters here at least) science is the final arbitrator on issues like global warming but it's a governmental/big pharma conspiracy when it's an issue like this. :shrug:

 

[shesulsa]

And yet - case after case after case of children with off-the-chart mercury levels and neurological issues following vaccines continue to show up.

You're a Right wing Republican, right? Aren't you angered at all the people living off of tax dollars? Why aren't you angry about the wave of neurologically damaged adults about to hit society that your tax dollars are going to have to pay for?

What will it take? Autism is pandemic now. It outnumbers all other developmental disorders combined. Even the margins allowing for improved diagnosis and over diagnosis can't account for that rate of increase.

See ... I am ALL FOR *SAFE* vaccination. But there are elements of immunity we don't yet understand.

But I'm sure I should just sit down and shut up, even if the vaccine manufacturer DID testify in front of congress that they cannot say with certainty that vaccines don't cause autism.

There have not been any reliable studies done on this data which have not been funded, partially funded or back-doored by vaccine manufacturers, the CDC (who we all know is in bed with Merck et al).

But that doesn't matter, does it?

 

[Makalakumu]

Is it autism if its mercury poisoning? The human body is weird. Some people can take a crap load of certain heavy metals and some people can't handle hardly any. Every safe dose breaks a few eggs. It's always a matter of statistics until its your kid.

About the best advice I've gotten from a doctor is this...

1. Don't vaccinate sick children. The immune system needs to be running at top speed.

2. Don't bundle vaccines. Take them one at a time with plenty of time in between to watch for side effects.

3. Don't vaccinate for stuff you don't need to worry about. Certain vaccines aren't worth taking because they don't work very well or they protect against diseases that aren't that dangerous. There's no reason to bypass your bodies defenses if you don't need to.

And, as Shesulsa pointed out, watch the movie and then lets discuss. There's a lot of surprising people who make appearances in this film and they say some surprising things. Educating people who actually performed the studies in question and have some important information to pass on that is left out of the Official Dialogue.

 

[Archangel M]

From the very interesting WIRED magazine article I refrenced above...

When a child is ill, parents will do anything to make it right. If you doubt that, just spend a day or two at the annual conference of the nonprofit organization Autism One, a group built around the conviction that autism is caused by vaccines. It shares its agenda with other advocacy groups like the National Autism Association, the Coalition for SafeMinds, and McCarthy’s Generation Rescue. All these organizations cite similar anecdotes — children who appear to shut down and exhibit signs of autistic behavior immediately after being vaccinated — as proof. Autism One, like others, also points to rising rates of autism — what many parents call an epidemic — as evidence that vaccines are to blame. Finally, Autism One asserts that the condition is preventable and treatable, and that it is the toxins in vaccines and the sheer number of childhood vaccines (the CDC recommends 10 vaccines, in 26 doses, by the age of 2 — up from four vaccines in 1983) that combine to cause disease in certain sensitive children.

Their rhetoric often undergoes subtle shifts, especially when the scientific evidence becomes too overwhelming on one front or another. After all, saying you’re against all vaccines does start to sound crazy, even to a parent in distress over a child’s autism. Until recently, Autism One’s Web site flatly blamed “too many vaccines given too soon.” Lately, the language has gotten more vague, citing “environmental triggers.”

But the underlying argument has not changed: Vaccines harm America’s children, and doctors like Paul Offit are paid shills of the drug industry.

To be clear, there is no credible evidence to indicate that any of this is true. None. Twelve epidemiological studies have found no data that links the MMR (measles/mumps/rubella) vaccine to autism; six studies have found no trace of an association between thimerosal (a preservative containing ethylmercury that was used in vaccines until 2001) and autism, and three other studies have found no indication that thimerosal causes even subtle neurological problems. The so-called epidemic, researchers assert, is the result of improved diagnosis, which has identified as autistic many kids who once might have been labeled mentally retarded or just plain slow. In fact, the growing body of science indicates that the autistic spectrum — which may well turn out to encompass several discrete conditions — may largely be genetic in origin. In April, the journal Nature published two studies that analyzed the genes of almost 10,000 people and identified a common genetic variant present in approximately 65 percent of autistic children.

But that hasn’t stopped as many as one in four Americans from believing vaccines can poison kids, according to a 2008 survey. And outreach by grassroots organizations like Autism One is a big reason why.

 

[Makalakumu]

And yet - case after case after case of children with off-the-chart mercury levels and neurological issues following vaccines continue to show up.

You're a Right wing Republican, right? Aren't you angered at all the people living off of tax dollars? Why aren't you angry about the wave of neurologically damaged adults about to hit society that your tax dollars are going to have to pay for?

What will it take? Autism is pandemic now. It outnumbers all other developmental disorders combined. Even the margins allowing for improved diagnosis and over diagnosis can't account for that rate of increase.

See ... I am ALL FOR *SAFE* vaccination. But there are elements of immunity we don't yet understand.

But I'm sure I should just sit down and shut up, even if the vaccine manufacturer DID testify in front of congress that they cannot say with certainty that vaccines don't cause autism.

There have not been any reliable studies done on this data which have not been funded, partially funded or back-doored by vaccine manufacturers, the CDC (who we all know is in bed with Merck et al).

But that doesn't matter, does it?

One thing that has always bothered me about all these industry supported studies is how they are separating the effects of mercury poisoning from that of autism.

Frankly, it comes off like this...if its mercury poisoning, its not autism. If its autism, it's not mercury poisoning. That's not a study at all. That's a counting game.

 

[Makalakumu]

I find it frustrating how (to some posters here at least) science is the final arbitrator on issues like global warming but it's a governmental/big pharma conspiracy when it's an issue like this. :shrug:

That is frustrating...I actually starting doubting GW before I started looking at this stuff.

 

[Archangel M]

The biggest risk I see here is the "backsplash" against ALL vaccination. Again from the WIRED article:

In May, The New England Journal of Medicine laid the blame for clusters of disease outbreaks throughout the US squarely at the feet of declining vaccination rates, while nonprofit health care provider Kaiser Permanente reported that unvaccinated children were 23 times more likely to get pertussis, a highly contagious bacterial disease that causes violent coughing and is potentially lethal to infants. In the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, Jason Glanz, an epidemiologist at Kaiser’s Institute for Health Research, revealed that the number of reported pertussis cases jumped from 1,000 in 1976 to 26,000 in 2004. A disease that vaccines made rare, in other words, is making a comeback. “This study helps dispel one of the commonly held beliefs among vaccine-refusing parents: that their children are not at risk for vaccine-preventable diseases,” Glanz says.

“I used to say that the tide would turn when children started to die. Well, children have started to die,” Offit says, frowning as he ticks off recent fatal cases of meningitis in unvaccinated children in Pennsylvania and Minnesota. “So now I’ve changed it to ‘when enough children start to die.’ Because obviously, we’re not there yet.”

I fear we are going to soon have a generation of children who start dying of measles, mumps etc. at an accelerated rate. The reason these diseases have become so rare in the first place is due to vaccination. What would parents prefer? A scientifically proven risk of death by measles by refusing vaccination or the anecdotal Autisim risk?

 

[shesulsa]

One thing that has always bothered me about all these industry supported studies is how they are separating the effects of mercury poisoning from that of autism.

Frankly, it comes off like this...if its mercury poisoning, its not autism. If its autism, it's not mercury poisoning. That's not a study at all. That's a counting game.

I've felt for a long time that what we call "Autism" is actually a collective group of symptoms which house three (possibly four) separate disorders/diseases, the markers for which we don't know how to monitor yet.

I agree with you - if it's mercury poisoning, it's not "autism" ... it's mercury poisoning. And as one parent in the movie (we're all supposed to be discussing the movie and what was presented in it, right?), no child's baseline mercury levels are tested prior to vaccination - and THIS LEADS ME TO MY LONG-TIME, YET-TO-BE-SHOT-DOWN ARGUMENT:

We have the technology to make broad-spectrum baseline testing affordable and available to all newborns in this country. In fact, if we did process baseline testing for potential allergic reactions, heavy metals in the blood, skin, hair and urine, metabolic disorders *almost always ignored until it's too late* and other genetic and chromosomal deficiencies or abnormalities for every newborn infant, I daresay most childhood death and illness could be avoided and general health and herd immunity abolutely improved. I also daresay that what we now call autism will be redefined into liver disorders, chromosomal disorders, genetic disorders, and other issues which lie in wait for the trigger to set the stage for a devastating blow.

It can be done. If we can manufacture shots for every child in America, we can make this baseline testing available at less than half the cost of one shot.