US Law now enforcable in Canada?

Bob Hubbard

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Taken from http://www.lp.org/yourturn/archives/000065.shtml


[font=Arial, Helvetica]No Wonder Most of the World Hates Us[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]By Stephen Gordon[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Canadian Marc Emery was arrested last week in Halifax, Nova Scotia. He was not charged with any violation of Canadian law, however. You see, Emery is the publisher of the popular Cannabis Culture Magazine, producer of POT-TV, and ran the successful Marc Emery Direct marijuana seed company. The indictment from which the warrant was based (it included two other Emery Seeds employees) was issued the US by a federal Grand Jury as a result of DEA operations, and not because of Canadian law enforcement activities. To be sure, Canadian authorities were quite aware of Emery's activities for years and had never acted to halt them, although he had been arrested on non-related marijuana charges.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]The three were charged with conspiracy to manufacture marijuana, conspiracy to distribute marijuana seeds, and money-laundering operations. Emery is currently out on bail awaiting an extradition hearing. It should come as no surprise that the DEA had wished for Emery to stay in Canadian jail until such time (reported as a year or more) as the extradition hearing was concluded. While DEA officials deny any political motivation for the arrests, Emery was the leader of the BC Marijuana Party (BCMP) and their offices were also raided as part of the arrest process. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Canadians are vocally upset about this situation and have been protesting since the arrest was made. Many are extremely concerned that Emery will be subjected to a draconian possible life sentence if convicted in the United States. In addition to the obvious implications of this expansion of the federal War on Drugs, the arrests raise another important question: Is Canada a sovereign country or merely the 51st US state?
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[font=Arial, Helvetica]Posted by Shane Cory at August 4, 2005 05:16 PM[/font]
 

Flatlander

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We have an extradition treaty wherein we will extradite a Canadian citizen to the US if they have committed a crime in the US. The stipulation is that we must also consider it a crime here.

Emery broke the law, but, due to the political conditions and potential upcoming changes to these laws, the BC police are not enforcing these laws, as they are choosing other areas of focus (organized crime is pretty big there.)

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It should come as no surprise that the DEA had wished for Emery to stay in Canadian jail until such time (reported as a year or more) as the extradition hearing was concluded.
No, it shouldn't. I would expect that any Canadian citizen would remain on Canadian soil until it was determined that extradition was appropriate by the courts.
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[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Many are extremely concerned that Emery will be subjected to a draconian possible life sentence if convicted in the United States.[/font]
Well, not me. He should have considered the law before he broke it.

Now, I am one of those that believes that current pot laws are outdated and require some loosening. However, as it is right now, you cannot ship pot or pot seeds to the US. That is against the law, both here and in the US. So, the US wants to apply the law. Good, let'em I say. Its their legal right to do so.
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Andrew Green

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Flatlander said:
We have an extradition treaty wherein we will extradite a Canadian citizen to the US if they have committed a crime in the US. The stipulation is that we must also consider it a crime here.
By the sounds of things, it was stuff he was doing in Canada that they went after him for, not stuff he did in the US.
 

Andrew Green

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Here's a more detailed article: http://www.canada.com/vancouver/van...d=d3aa799f-0e0a-45b3-9a56-2ddea3403741&page=1

He ran a open business, storefront, website, mailing addresses, everything in place. He sold Maijuana seeds internationally and locally.

Didn't commit any crime in the US, just shipped there. I really don't see how the US can claim juristiction, he was in Canada when he broke the law and it should be up to Canadian officials whether or not he gets prosectuted or not.
 

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Seems like people are looking for (manufacturing) reasons to "hate America" lately.
 

Andrew Green

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arnisador said:
His own country arrested him, right? Case closed.
Yes, but he wasn't charged with anything under Canadaian law, all the charges laid where from the US.
 

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Andrew Green said:
Here's a more detailed article: http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=d3aa799f-0e0a-45b3-9a56-2ddea3403741&page=1

He ran a open business, storefront, website, mailing addresses, everything in place. He sold Maijuana seeds internationally and locally.

Didn't commit any crime in the US, just shipped there. I really don't see how the US can claim juristiction, he was in Canada when he broke the law and it should be up to Canadian officials whether or not he gets prosectuted or not.
He broke Canadian Law, and was arrested by the RCMP. According to your article, he is charged in the US with "several drug-related charges, including conspiring to distribute marijuana seeds and launder money." Given the treaty, should the courts deem extradition appropriate or not, then the law shall prevail either way.

Critics of the treaty generally argue "that actions against foreigners violate international law, compromise human rights, and violate national sovereignty." (source) I counter that the Government of Canada entered into this treaty freely and knowingly, thus, our sovereignty has not been compromised, as we are a willing participant. Furthermore, the stipulation is that the court shall decide whether or not to grant extradition, presumably upon the discovery of sufficient evidence.

I don't think that Emery has a valid complaint here.
"Emery claims to make $3 million a year from selling marijuana seeds online and by mail, along with selling equipment for grow operations, such as fertilizer, lighting, and other products that help people grow plants, according to US officials." (source)

He broke the law, both in Canada and the US as a profiteering protester. If, as a protester, he is unwilling to bear responsibility for his actions, he deserves no sympathy from me.
 

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Tgace said:
Seems like people are looking for (manufacturing) reasons to "hate America" lately.
Maybe, just maybe (I'm going out on a limb here) but people would be just as mad if any other country had placed charges on a Canadian, for things done in Canada.

I would also imagine that Americans would be a little annoyed if Canada got the FBI to arrest an American, in American, for things done in America that where a crime in Canada but the US wasn't going to lay charges for.

But to claim people are just manufacturing reasons to hate America everytime your gov't does something that effects other countries in a way that the people of those countries disagree with is a very weak argument.

Canadians are proud to be Canadians, and want to stay Canadians. Many Canadians don't want to become even more heavily influenced by the US then we already are. Having American Law (or any other country's) enforced on Canadian soil is not something we want happening.
 

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We asked for Canadian help and you guys agreed. Could just as easily refused. If you are going to be mad over this be mad at yourselves. Abiding to mutual agreements is hardly a US abuse of power IMO.
 

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Andrew Green said:
Maybe, just maybe (I'm going out on a limb here) but people would be just as mad if any other country had placed charges on a Canadian, for things done in Canada.
It can be argued that by shipping illicit substances to the US, Emery broke US law. So, yes, he was in Canda at the time of the offence. That doesn't counter the US jurisdictional issue. By engaging in illegal trade across the 49th, he broke the laws of both countries.

I would also imagine that Americans would be a little annoyed if Canada got the FBI to arrest an American, in American, for things done in America that where a crime in Canada but the US wasn't going to lay charges for.
See above. Further, note that the treaty exists. With all of these countries. Your argument is with the Canadian Government, not the US for following it.


Canadians are proud to be Canadians, and want to stay Canadians. Many Canadians don't want to become even more heavily influenced by the US then we already are. Having American Law (or any other country's) enforced on Canadian soil is not something we want happening.
This is absolultely true. However, it seems to me that if we want to have any type of leverage in having the US honour the various treaties that they have broken (NAFTA, the Boundary Waters Treaty) then it would be responsible of us to uphold them when applicable, don't you think?
 

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He is a Canadian, in Canada, that was acting in Canada and all the evidence is in Canada.

He should be punished under Canadian law, in a Canadian court.
 

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Andrew Green said:
He is a Canadian, in Canada, that was acting in Canada and all the evidence is in Canada.

He should be punished under Canadian law, in a Canadian court.
I agree. Upon completion of his sentence, he should be extradited to the US to face charges there, for his crimes committed there, should the extradition courts deem it appropriate under the MLAC treaty stipulations.
 

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Flatlander said:
I agree. Upon completion of his sentence, he should be extradited to the US to face charges there, for his crimes committed there, should the extradition courts deem it appropriate under the MLAC treaty stipulations.
I agree, but Bob's original post says he wasn't charged with violation of any Canadian laws. Will he be now under pressure from the US government? and if so, is it right we be politically pressured to do so? Also, and I apologise for my ignorance, but has there ever been a situation before where we have extradicted someone for breaking the law in another country while they were in Canada without prosecuting here first?
 

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Nalia said:
I agree, but Bob's original post says he wasn't charged with violation of any Canadian laws. Will he be now under pressure from the US government? and if so, is it right we be politically pressured to do so? Also, and I apologise for my ignorance, but has there ever been a situation before where we have extradicted someone for breaking the law in another country while they were in Canada without prosecuting here first?
It is clear that he violated Canadian law, whether or not those laws are being enforced rigidly at this time is irrelavent. The fact that he broke those laws invokes the right of the US to demand extradition for crimes he committed within the US. Sorry, but this guy is subject to extradition, and it isn't a plot. It isn't actually necessary to try this gentleman there first. If the Canadian citizen violated a Canadian law, the Canadian government can simply choose not to prosecute. This guy should be happy in that case, it means he's already beaten the Canadian charges.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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I don't believe it is right to arrest someone for breaking the law remotely. The fact that he sent illegal (under US law) items to the US is moot. Arrest those buying those items.

He is in Canada, is a Canadian citizen, and alegedly broke Canadian law by dealing. Looks like an internal Canadian issue to me. The US should butt out. It's not the US's place to tell Canada what/how to enforce their laws.

Now, it's been said he commited a crime in the US.
Was he here doing it? Or was he just sending pot through the mail?
If he was here, then I see him as falling within our laws. If he wasn't, then our laws don't apply.

I would hate to think that another nation could demand my butt because I broke their laws, remotely, without being there, and get it.
 

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There was a lot of support when various nations announced they'd start arresting 'sex tourists' who travel abroad to have sex with minors. That is, as a U.S. citizen you can be arrested by the U.S., in the U.S., for what you do in Thailand.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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I disagree with that policy. I understand the intent, but not the way it works.
If it's legal where you do it (whatever it is) then you shouldn't be at risk when you return home. I mean, NY drinking age is 21. Are we going to bust every 19-20 year old who goes to ON where the drinking age is 19? Should I get a ticket in NY for when I was driving 85 in GA (on a road where it was legal) when the max in NY is 65?

I understand the idea is to do as much damage to the sex trade, but while that punishes 1 party, it does nothing to save the victim, stop future victimization, or solve the problem.

Same thing with the US/Canada drug issue. Ok, pot's illegal in the US. Can we also go after someone who sells from Amsterdamn (sp) where it is legal for breaking US laws by sending it here? SHouldn't we strengthen our border filters and target the buyer?
 

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Bob Hubbard said:
I don't believe it is right to arrest someone for breaking the law remotely. The fact that he sent illegal (under US law) items to the US is moot. Arrest those buying those items.

He is in Canada, is a Canadian citizen, and alegedly broke Canadian law by dealing. Looks like an internal Canadian issue to me. The US should butt out. It's not the US's place to tell Canada what/how to enforce their laws.

Now, it's been said he commited a crime in the US.
Was he here doing it? Or was he just sending pot through the mail?
If he was here, then I see him as falling within our laws. If he wasn't, then our laws don't apply.

I would hate to think that another nation could demand my butt because I broke their laws, remotely, without being there, and get it.
If he distributes drugs to the US, he is a criminal. He will pay for his crimes in the US. He engaged in an ongoing criminal enterprise to export an illegal controlled substance into the United States, knowing it was illegal to do so, for the intent of making a profit.

You guys get awful bent out of shape about the marijuana don't you?
 

sgtmac_46

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Bob Hubbard said:
I disagree with that policy. I understand the intent, but not the way it works.
If it's legal where you do it (whatever it is) then you shouldn't be at risk when you return home. I mean, NY drinking age is 21. Are we going to bust every 19-20 year old who goes to ON where the drinking age is 19? Should I get a ticket in NY for when I was driving 85 in GA (on a road where it was legal) when the max in NY is 65?

I understand the idea is to do as much damage to the sex trade, but while that punishes 1 party, it does nothing to save the victim, stop future victimization, or solve the problem.

Same thing with the US/Canada drug issue. Ok, pot's illegal in the US. Can we also go after someone who sells from Amsterdamn (sp) where it is legal for breaking US laws by sending it here? SHouldn't we strengthen our border filters and target the buyer?
Your analogy is flawed. If I mail a bomb to my ex-wife in New York, and it blows up killing her there, should I be tried here or there? Answer: Both. The murder took place in New York, so I should be extradited there to stand trial. The fact that I mailed the item from here does not mean the murder took place here. I may have committed a crime here as well, but that will charged seperately, and doesn't change the fact that I committed a crime there as well.

Moreover, if I mailed the bomb from Africa, but it blew up in the US, where do you want me charged? If you were on the receiving end, I can tell you what you'd want in that case. You'd want extradition.

As far as your Amsterdam analogy, it is flawed as well. If this gentleman had given pot to US citizens while they were in Canada, it would be different. He conspired to export a controlled substance INTO the United States, therefore violating US and Canadian law.

The whole issue is about marijuana, it isn't about extradition anyway. Lets just drop the pretense.
 
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