Up and coming students in Hwa Rang Do

lulflo

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I have been training in HRD for four and a half years now and have been doing my best to maintain through the belts. White belt was nice because I was able to memorize the information relatively easy. I did have trouble with my motor skills, but who doesn't.

Orange belt was a step in the right direction, adding on to what I already knew, but I was already feeling the pain because of my training situation. I didn't have a partner to train with except my teacher. I have that test on video, I can look back (through the gaps of my hands over my eyes) and see all the errors I committed and forge ahead to the next belt test on tape.

Yellow belt was awesome, I wasn't. Again, the misfortune of a student with only his teacher in a 10x10' room to train in. I am very fortunate to have such a great technician as my teacher, however there is no way I would utilize my broken technique on him and risk not having a teacher with both wrists in tact. So on to the tape. Wow, that was just dreadful. I am glad that guy is still my friend, and that I passed that test even with what took place..the techniques I chose to utilize. Let me digress, I was very happy when doing forms, basic eight, kick tests, weapons forms and ki breathing exercises, and not even so much hesitation on the sam bo da ryun and il bo da ryun, but ho shin won sul(son mak sul), that was disgraceful...

So now hesitantly I arrive at green belt. I actually have a student come and train with me, we get to practice all the techniques together, but because of the limited space in the micro dojang, there is just no way to go full on and follow through with the techniques. Nevertheless, I continue on, once a week at my teacher's house and do my best to follow the guidelines I am given, void of application in a real sense, but I still get to test out to purple belt. Now this is the test I would use to show someone a sample of my participation in this art, I trained with a partner for a majority of the time before my exhibition and he was really naturally talented. That was great.

So after green belt testing, I began having trouble remembering all the new stuff I would be taught. My teacher moved two and a half hours away and I could only see him once a month, if even that - so I just trained harder on the stuff I already knew. Again, the issue is that I don't have anyone to train with. I talked to my teacher and told him that I have a friend who would like to learn HRD and was given the blessing to show him white belt, basically to practice my stuff and allow my friend to train with me. I ended up with a couple of people that would train with me and then they were able to get more information when they would come with me and train with my teacher, so now I have some people to train with.

Well it was two years later before I tested again and I had the material for both purple and blue belt so I was going to test for brown belt. That was what happened and I passed, it was really tough though and there was a time or two during the testing that I was not sure what the outcome would be, but again I made it. A true testament to the heart of the warrior that I am trying to become.

So now again, looking at the tape through veiled eyes, I am at the crossroads once again, in competition with myself to have a successful outcome with my red belt test. I feel great with regards to forms, weapons forms and, well that is about all. It's those darn techniques again, no students or locations or time for that matter to get it all dialed in as I would hope to, 7 kicks in 3 seconds -done it once so far, basic tests, huff, puff, huff, puff, need to work on those. I have about 3 weeks to get er' done, wish me luck.

Farang - Larry
 

glad2bhere

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I posted this in another area in the hopes of getting the attention of some HWARANGDO people.

Does anyone know the origina of the GUM MOO Hyung as a 1st BB requirement for TAE SOO DO? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

shesulsa

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That's a good question. Perhaps someone with WHRDA affiliation would be able to answer it. I can tell you that when what I do was called HRD, the hyungs were named after the nine virtues in the Do Kyo Hoon. The white belt form was called Hwarang In Hyung (Hwarang Humanity Form), orange belt form was called Hwarang Oui Hyung (Justice), etcetera. But I am not certified in Tae Soo Do, so I can't really answer your question.
 

Kuk Sa Nim

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I think I can help with this question.

Actually, Hwarang Gum Mu Hyung is the first sword form in the HRD Black Belt curriculum. I believe that it was a 1st or 2nd Dan requirement. (sorry, I have not kept up the old system in a looong time).

But anyway, it was performed with one hand holding the sword, and the other holding the scabbard. There are many linear to circular movements, and vice-versa, jumps, spins, etc. To my knowledge, there were 2 versions of this form that I was exposed to.

You can see GM JBL doing one version as a young man in some demos that were filmed at a temple in Korea during the 60's.

The other can be seen as performed by Master Peter Gil Kim at a very large martial arts demo in LA in the 70’s (unfortunately, the name of the event escapes me). He told me that GM JBL taught him this form, which is very similar to the one JBL is doing, but much shorter. I believe GM JBL was improvising a little as he was being filmed, hence the difference and longer version.

Master Kim has taught this version of the form to many people since then (including myself). I also believe that the form has been altered a few times since then, and a version was added to the new pre-cursor art they invented "TSD". Most of us "old timers" never got involved with TSD, therefore we don't know much about it, other than it being a TKD replica.

Hope this helps.

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba
 

shesulsa

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Farang, Kuk Sa Nim De Alba.

kuk Sa Nim said:
You can see GM JBL doing one version as a young man in some demos that were filmed at a temple in Korea during the 60's.
There is a still foto that is often used on DJN Lee's website and other materials of him performing a sword form at a temple - he is jumping in the foto. Did this foto come from that film?

Thank you in advance, Sir.
 

Kuk Sa Nim

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Farang!

Exactly. There were several photo shoots, and filming done at this general time. Some of the footage was shot "professionally", and the other footage (that was given to me), is from an 8mm camera that one of the old black belts took.

There was footage of forms, techniques (mostly Hoshin Son Mok Sul, Kong Gyuk Kibon Sul and Kong Soo Jang Gum Bang A Sul). There was also breaking, and Ki Power demonstrations. It was not just GM JBL, but also some of the other important masters from that era, such as GM Hyun Jun Lee.

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba
 

jkn75

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glad2bhere said:
I posted this in another area in the hopes of getting the attention of some HWARANGDO people.

Does anyone know the origina of the GUM MOO Hyung as a 1st BB requirement for TAE SOO DO? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Any one who is familiar with both Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do could possibly answer this question: How similar is HRD/TSD Guhm Moo Hyung and KSW Guhm Moo Hyung? In KSW Guhm Moo Hyung is performed empty-handed and the motions simulate sword and knife techniques. It is also required to receive 1st Dan. From Grand Master De Alba's description, they sound different.
 

glad2bhere

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Yes. I had understood that both KSW and HRD had a GUM MOO hyung but that they were different in both their focus as well as execution. Somehow I am getting the idea that there is a "GUM MOO" out there which is related to older sword practice and this was something I was very keen to run down. My understanding is that the KSW people do swordwork but that it is work or forms constructed by In Hyuk Suh. In like manner I was wondering if the GUM MOO of the HRD was constructed by GM Joo Bang Lee.

Of course, the obvious question that would then follow would be what material did these gentlemen draw on to produce their hyung. Right now I am about open to anything that might point me in a productive direction. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

Kuk Sa Nim

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glad2bhere said:
My understanding is that the KSW people do swordwork but that it is work or forms constructed by In Hyuk Suh. In like manner I was wondering if the GUM MOO of the HRD was constructed by GM Joo Bang Lee.

Of course, the obvious question that would then follow would be what material did these gentlemen draw on to produce their hyung. Right now I am about open to anything that might point me in a productive direction. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
These can be really loaded questions that would unleash a huge can of political worms, that I will definitely stay away from. "HRD vs KSW vs HKD", "who taught who, who was in charge", etc. That's OK. I've got my opinions (based on 1st hand experience), that I'll just keep to myself. I will however try to shed light on some aspects of your questions.

True, the Gum Moo Hyung in both HRD and KSW are distinct, and one is an obvious weapon set, while the other is not (but may be, if so interpreted). It is very interesting to note that these two forms were taught at black belt level, and yet are so different.

The first sword form of KSW is "Jang Gum Hyung", and it is VERY different from the Gum Moo Hyung of HRD. To me this alone illustrates the limits on how much (or should I say how little) these leading masters (JBL & IHS) actually "shared, or taught" with one another as their respective arts took more formal shape.

In my educated opinion, the Jang Gum Hyung (and other KSW forms) are more basic in nature, whereas the HRD set(s) tend to be more complex. Not to say one is better than the other. Just that there are very clear differences. Once again, this re-enforces the notion that both these masters did not share as much as is often believed.

There could be a myriad of sources from which these gentlemen drew upon in developing their respective arts (above and beyond the history they provide). In particular, the sword aspects (Jang Gum Sul). Personally, I have seen several distinct versions of Korean sword arts, that may or may not, have been references. I will keep my opinions on this subject to myself ("Can of worms"). The arts that I have seen are:

- HRD - Jang Gum Sul (Combination of soft and hard / straight and linear / single and two hand / forward and reverse grip movements / single and double swords, etc.)
- KSW - Jang Gum Sul - similar to the previous, just a little more basic in the movements
- Kum Do - Various systems that resemble Japanese Kendo (in more than one way)
- Do Hap Sool - Jang Gum Sul - Similar to the HRD set, with much more "Chinese influenced movements", such as one hand sets, double edge, broad sword, LOTS of circular movements, and a whole bunch of interesting bladed weapons, not commonly seen. You can see pictures of these weapons on my website under the Images - Do Hap Sool section:

http://www.dsystem.com/images/DHS22DblEdgSwrdHookHatchet.html

or

http://www.dsystem.com/images/DoHapSoolindex.html

- Hae Dong Kum Do - I have seen a couple versions of this system. That appear to me (for lack of a better term) as a combination of the HRD and DHS methods - Mr. Robert Young has some great videos from Korea, check out his website to purchase them:

http://www.concentric.net/~sdseong/kmar.index.html

- Sun Moo Do - Jang Gum Sul -
- Ship Pal Gi - Jang Gum Sul -
- Chosun Do - Jang Gum Sul -
- Tae Guk Kwon - Jang Gum Sul -

These last ones, I only have a limited exposure to. I'm sure there are others that escape me at the moment. But the bottom line is that there exist a huge amount of knowledge of Korean weapons, and sword arts in particular, that can be found today. Some appear much more modern than the history(s) given, but this may or may not be of importance, depending on the individual student. Personally, I could care less. I care about the value of the art and the sound structure of it's information and philosophy.

OK, I hope this helps.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba
 

glad2bhere

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Thank you very much for your information ---and for your "diplomacy". I don't think I could handle one more energy-charged political wrangling.

I will probably have a few more questions but let me chew on what you have provided--- and thansk again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

shesulsa

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Kuk Sa Nim,

That was very enlightening. Thank you for posting.

Farang,

Georgia Ketchmark
 

Kuk Sa Nim

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"Cha Ma Ne Oh"

(this is how I was taught to say "you are welcome” when I was in Korea. Only becasue I know there are other versions taught).

:>)

It is my pleasure to have wonderful discussions on one of my favorite subjects: Korean Martial Arts.

:>)

BTW, How is Master Corona? I haven't talked to him in too long now. It is a shame that the fact that we left the WHRDA has now unfortunately NOT given us an excuse to see one another. I miss him. He is such a great teacher, and talented practitioner. Please give him a huge FARANG! from me and all our FMS family.

I was Farang before, I'm Farang now, and I will always be Farang!

With brotherhood...
 

shesulsa

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Kuk Sa Nim said:
BTW, How is Master Corona? I haven't talked to him in too long now. It is a shame that the fact that we left the WHRDA has now unfortunately NOT given us an excuse to see one another. I miss him. He is such a great teacher, and talented practitioner. Please give him a huge FARANG! from me and all our FMS family.

I was Farang before, I'm Farang now, and I will always be Farang!

With brotherhood...
I last saw Master Corona at the black belt promotion in November of last year and he was doing quite well. I must say I unequivocably agree with your sentiments!

I would be honored to pass the message along, Sir. And I should say, "Kom map sam ni da." :asian:

Farang!
 
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lulflo

lulflo

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I guess we are all up and coming students in HRD. I was also at the belt promotion in November at KJN Corona's dojang. It is very interesting to read the postings on everything that says Hwa Rang Do. I am seeing a common theme; politics and not a very cozy feeling. I am relatively new as a student (four and a half years) and have quite the sheltered view of this whole situation, but it seems taboo to say certain things or talk about certain things. I will have to assume that I just don't know better and accept things as they are from an outsiders point of view. I guess what I am getting at is that I would like to find a way to get to a place (or thread) where the conversation is about those things that can be discussed and there is less and less censorship. Again, I am very interested in the conversation posted as it is surely the history that I should be aware of, and I do not wish to offend anyone and show the utmost respect to my brothers/sisters/teachers with any and every comment that I post. So, with all that said, hello to all and I hope we all can come together at some point and train hard as I am sure we all do. Be well.

Farang - Larry
 

Kuk Sa Nim

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You bring up some good points Larry.

First, sorry for deviating to Korean Swordsmanship, from your original topic: The path of Training. (these threads have a tendency to do this).

You are right in that we are all students and will always be learning as long as we have that desire. The day we stop learning is the day we die, and I mean this both in the figurative and literal sense. This is why martial arts are a way of life. Once we think we have it all figured out, and start becoming too full of ourselves, it will come back and remind you how small and insignificant we all are. If we pay attention, we will learn how little we actually have learned, how much more we need to learn, and how big the sea still is.

There are many paths to the top of the mountain. Some are straight, curved, smooth, and rough, etc. yet, as long as we persevere, they all lead to the top. In the beginning, as we stand at the foot of the mountain, we can not see the top, nor the sides, much less anything beyond it. "The mountain is the entire world". It is not until we do what must be done to reach the top that we can then see that there exists other mountains. Some even bigger. It is up to us to decide wether to settle for what we have accomplished, or suck it up and reverse our steps, climb all the way back down, and across to the next mountain, and start all over again. Hopefully, we will have learned better ways of climbing by then.

Sorry for getting so philosophical.

As for the politics of HRD, I am sorry to say that they were there before we got here, and will most likely continue, because unfortunately they are not limited to HRD, but to all martial arts. This is a sad statement about an endeavor that is supposed to develop humility as well as strength. But, for some reason we continue to be plagued by the pitfalls of the human personality, such as greed, fear and ego among other things. What was the famous quote supposed by Suam Dosa about "large egos"?

We are not perfect, and I count myself very much in that category, but that should not stop us from striving to surpass our own shortcomings. Lord knows we already have the challenges of life to overcome, yet the true test is when one can master oneself (also meant on several levels).

For those of us ex-HRD people, the taboo of politics is not something we invented nor fixate upon. As long as you do your level best to live up to the higher principles that we constantly expound, then you are on the right path. This is not an easy path, and as a matter of fact is the hardest path.

So, we need to keep it real, and keep on keepin' on.
Farang.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba
 
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lulflo

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Kuk Sa Nim De Alba,

Your response means a great deal to me. I have only just reached the clouds of Mount Hwarang and realized that above the clouds the mountain is twice as high as I thought...and there are others that are equally as high and higher.

What a task it has been to maintain all that has been taught to me. If I would have known at the beginning all that I know now (and all that I still don't know), I can't say that I would have even attempted to begin, but I am sure glad I did. It really is true to say that old saying, the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. Really, just think, we are microcosmic in regards to the universe, here we are on earth doing our time, and there is so much out there that isn't even an idea that has been thought. I envision myself like a grain of sand on the beach, I may never know what is on the other side of the ocean. But still, the emphasis on what is happening at this very moment is so great, in my opinion, because we are affecting everything in some way...I guess going off on tangents is universal too :)

As far as politics go, I guess being an up and coming student in Hwa Rang Do means that I need to be prepared to discuss and deal with politics in some form, so I am glad that I was able to get a response from a person who can formulate responses that are very coherent for me. I have basically been shielded by my own ignorance and lack of diligence in investigation. It is really interesting to me and I think it is wise for me to understand the information, I just do NOT want to be jaded by information that may change my perception without my own cognizant choice. I just don't know how to discuss things without being the blunt dummy that I can tend to be in that type of circumstance.

Again, I am truly grateful for your response and hope to be in contact with you again in the future.

Kam sa hap ni da.

Farang - Larry
 
T

TomakaStud

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Farang to all,

My name is Tom Capaldi, i am also a student of KJN Corona's. How are you SheSulsa? Have you tried to spin kick any cups lately...??? : ) (sober i hope...)

As for politics i would say those issues are better left to those who have a stake in them...those who were there through the years and have first hand knowlege of all that happened. We all feel the need at times to speak for those who we have sided with as they are our teachers and our mentors...but it should really not even be up for discussion from the new generation of HRD... that is just my opinion, i find that staying away from subjects i have no stake in or have not been asked to deal with is the best way to keep from speaking out of turn... As some of you know i have gone to bat with others i feel were speaking out of turn against KJN and the other banished WHRDA members.... not for anyones gain but to put a stop to those who would seek to spread rumors for their own side's gain...

All that aside...

Kuk Sa Nim De Alba, i am afraid i am only familiar with Modern Farang Mu Sul from what i have found out of your web site. I do know that KJN has spoken of you before in only high regard and it is a pleasure to meet you (as personaly as it can get electronically anyways). I am impressed with the ciriculum that you have developed, from the real life "what works" approach and philosophy to the traditions of forms and the ever so important ground work as well as fire arms familiarity. I believe those are all ever so important in a ciriculum for the situations one faces in the street today. I look forward to further discussions on the board.

Larry, have we met? Forgive me if we have but i feel i would have remembered some one in your training situation. I have been training with KJN in phx for i believe 4 years now (not so long i should have lost count but did) and was at the Black Belt testing in November.

Farang,

Tom Capaldi
 
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lulflo

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Hello Mr Capaldi,

I don't know if I have been introduced to you or not. I was at the presentation of belts and certificates at KJN Corona's dojang on Bell Road in November. I was the one on the far right side with a camera in my hand. I do have film of just about everyone there so if you are there, I could review the tape and find you. It would be great to cross paths someday soon!

As for the thread here, anyone got an idea how I can keep from huffing and puffing my way through a brown to red belt test. I think I am going to be doing two short forms, two times each on each side, then many of my techniques, seven kicks in 3 seconds, Duk Hyung, Staff form, Kama form, Saber sword form, sparring, grappling, breaking, verbal test and whatever else gets thrown in the mix. I have been trying to do some running and going over kwon bup, etc. But no matter what I do, I am dying after I get done with the first two short forms? Anyway, I'm sure there will be a way, and I will find it.

Farang - Larry
 

shesulsa

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Larry, I had a similar problem a couple of years ago. Actually, my stamina still suffers lags.

I kicked up my training a few years ago and no matter what I did I was winded after about three long forms and out of breathe after four. No matter how often I worked out or rode the bike I never made progress. I went to the doctor and talked to him about it and he gave me two inhalers. Apparently all the lung infections and congestion and allergies left me with unresolved congestion way down deep in my lungs.

Are you calling Hwarang In Hyung and Hwarang Oui Hyung "short forms"? We call those "long forms."

If you're getting winded after what I call two short forms ... you probably should see a doctor pronto.

Plus there's all kinds of other considerations ... your age, whether or not you smoke, any history of asthma, your breathing pattern at rest, your breathing pattern in general, your breathing pattern when performing.

Please talk to your teacher and see a doctor about training up for this and for future tests, and also please post your progress here.

Also, if you're willing, I'd very much like copies of any pictures you took. If they're not digital, I'd be happy to pay for copies.
 

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