Unstoppable Principles Systema People May be Unware of!

[Brad S.]

I am taking off my Systema hat for a minute and putting on ones from "non-Systema."

Here are some principles that may be "mindboggling" to Systema people.

If I press your arm into your body then you are nullified and are "checked off."

If I press my leg into your leg then you are somehow frozen and cannot move or escape.

You must be able to verbalize what you just did for it to have happened.

If I cannot do something, then neither can you.

I have friends who can keep you from doing your thing successfully but you cannot have friends who could continue to move successfully.

If you pull someone's arm down diagonally then they cannot move or counter.

You must have something called "travel" to strike hard-meaning that your weapon has to travel a certain distance for it to be effective.

There are many others you all may not be aware of and thus do not understand that you cannot possibly be doing the things you do, especially working with people from all different arts.

Ok, taking those other hats off because they fit too tightly.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Responding in PRECISELY the same spirit:

You know, I posted back talk in exactly the same spirit, but the hell with it.

I am assuming that this was a response to the questions I asked. If I'm wrong, my apologies for taking up anybody's time. If I'm not, well, you've convinced me that I was wrong to have been interested in Systema.

All you have to do is answer the inquiries. These forums are made of words; that's what they offer.

And folks who teach an art that they love should take pleasure in explaining it.

 

[Brad S.]

I do believe Pete tried time and again to answer your questions in a very polite manner but you refused to listen and your rebuttals were less than kind or showing any kind of openness to what other people were telling you from their own experiences.

You are reluctant to actually find someone who could show you what and why things work, something they would gladly do gently, kindly and without ego, not at all like a "challenge match." A free exchange of ideas-as is all Systema training.

An attempt was made to explain using your own principles and not to pass a judgement on an entire martial art based on a few pictures, not even the actual movement in real time.

You tell the people who are kind enough to explain that they cannot use authorities to justify their movements but you do allow yourself to "know six guys who would make you pay for such arrogance."

You humbly say that your are not more experienced than others yet do not listen. You believe that an ounce of theory is worth a pound of experience and not vice versa.

You do not believe in principles that Systema people apply that are in your own system, i.e. "the third arm" as in Piercing Lance to break the arm.

"I'm not buying it" is not an argument.

Again your comments about Systema having to be perfect and no "margin for error" are completely off-base. No part of Systema EVER, I repeat, EVER, relies on an "Ideal Situation" because there aren't any, they do not exist and each attack is distinct, unique and different and handled as such.

So yes, you got back what you put out and you do not like it. People have read both this forum and the comments on Kenponet and it is not so easy to change your tune and play nice now and play the innocent victim. Like Pete said so eloquently before, practice your art if you like it-no Systema person is going to try to stop you or try to convert you. But, please refrain from attacking something you know nothing about and have no experience with, especially to those who have experience in both. As for those who are generally interested by Systema, anyone in this community would be happy to help them-that is the way of the people in Systema.

We tried to help.

So, on a related note, I just saw Elektra and there is this scene where Stick her teacher tells her "some truths cannot be taught, they must be lived." Very appropriate.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see. You did have my questions and responses in mind. Very nice; one hopes that this is not emblematic of Systema folks. But, well, I stand by my post.

Just to take up one minor point, Brad, what I wrote about the "third arm," principle, regrattably, has nothing to do with your comment. "Piercing Lance," in kenpo, as you should know, does not merely rely upon any such principle: for example, when the upper body is being used to keep the opponent CHECKED (different from Systema, you and others have insisted), you are also a) moving to what kenpo calls a zone of obscurity, and b) doing your best to break the arm that has the knife on the end of it, c) doing your best to keep that knife pointed AWAY. In other words, there would never be any complete reliance upon some third arm business.

Hey, wait a minnit--I thought this was exactly the sort of idea that kenpo didn't have? If it doesn't have it, why is it there?

I realize that you don't agree. I don't think it helpful to try and disentangle your comments--I think they're ********, but I suspect the feeling is mutual--but I will stand behind the comment that people who love an art should take joy in explaining it even to the stupidest or most stubborn.

You're proud of your training and your teachers. Good for you; you should be. Ya know what? Me too, and I suspect they'll stack up against anybody you can offer. But I don't name my teachers FIRST when I get a question I don't like.

Here's my last comment: I think you guys are confusing what you think of as the superiority of Systema with something else. I think what Systema is doing for you is to help you understand your previous training better; it represents a way for you to mature in martial arts, and you've got that confused with its being superior. For example, the "new," emphasis on slow training and relaxation...wow. never heard THAT before...OK, well actually, not only is that everywhere in, say, t'ai chi, but if I wasn't taught that on Day 1 of my own training, it sure as hell came along early on day 2.

Along with this, I think you're forgetting the years and years of training before you found Systema--the base, if you like, that allowed you to develop as you have. But wotthell; I often wonder what's going to finally get me off the dime about many aspects of martial arts.
It's kinda like what people in kenpo do, as they learn technique endings--they think they're superior to the basic stuff, when they're really just developments of what was always already there. Hey, I'll tell ya a secret--I was more amazed at how many kenpo guys addressed those questions of mine in ways that suggested they really didn't know basic things about kenpo, than by anything the Systema folks wrote.

Again, I'm glad that you enjoy your training and your teaching. But you aren't the only one--and you aren't the only one who celebrates, "the free exchange of ideas," as fashionable as it is to believe that those of us who think ideas need structure are hopeless, stubborn, arrogant sticks-in-the-mud.

I'll check back in on this thread, in case there're actual ideas to discuss. As I've written about nine times at this point, I think Systema's pretty interesting, I've liked the descriptions of its training, and I find that it all pretty much parallels what I've been taught in kenpo. But I do not agree with some of what I've seen and read, and I won't be posting on this particular forum in response to any more guff.

 

[WillFightForBeer]

You must have something called "travel" to strike hard-meaning that your weapon has to travel a certain distance for it to be effective.

.

I disagree. You can put your arm up touching somebody's chest, and still cause plenty of damage.

-Ilya

 

[Jackal]

I disagree. You can put your arm up touching somebody's chest, and still cause plenty of damage.

-Ilya

Err..

That's the point Brad was making, Ilya. :wink:

 

[WillFightForBeer]

I meant without traveling any distance....as in put it there, no motion for as long as you want, and then cause the damage FROM contact..

Wait now I'M confused....
-Ilya

 

[Jackal]

*sigh* To be young again.

Just messing with ya, Ilya.

I'd hope, being an RMA advocate, that you'd disagree with all of the "principles" in the first post.

 

[Brad S.]

Jesse,

Thanks for helping to clarify (and for getting the point).

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Where.......am.......I?

-Ilya

 

[psi_radar]

Hi Robert,

Just as a coda to this exchange, I think one of the main reasons there was a lack of resolution from your point of view is that it is very difficult to compare Kenpo and Systema in Kenpo's terms, which I tried to do but really shouldn't have because they're apples and oranges.

As for Brad stating his experience up-front, I think it's good to have an idea of someone's experience to form a framework for their statements. If you don't think so, then it would be reasonable to assume you have no use for professional titles like Dr. or Ph.D.

If you do try Systema, I'd recommend trying it with an open mind rather than comparing it to your current base of martial arts knowledge, or applying Kenpo to its practice. It'll affect your learning curve in a negative fashion.

Have a good one,

Pete

 

[rmcrobertson]

I hadn't expected a resolution--and I don't have much use for professional titles, since it has been my experience that a) it's the dips in academia who use them most; b) there's a certain dippery in all academics that makes 'em keep whipping out their...titles.

I appreciate your comments, however, on this forum and on KenpoNet.

 

[WillFightForBeer]

MCRobertson,

I had to read it a hundred times, but I think I got you correctly...
Did you say that you think it's our OTHER arts that are helping us, not Systema?

I spent 8 months UNLEARNING my
Muay Thai
Tae Kwon Do
Wing Chun
Brazillian Jiu Jitsu
and Kali training.

-Ilya