United Martial Artists for Christ

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, I get that you don't get it... that's apparent in your mis-grasp of my comments.

No, I mentioned nothing about what karate is, I was talking about Japanese arts in general (including karate, of course). Secondly, have you ever encountered the phrase "Karate (or Budo, or any activity specified by the context, actually) begins and ends with rei (bowing, etiquette, ritual etc)" (Rei ni hajimari, rei ni owaru - 礼に始まり礼に終わる)? That kinda talks specifically to the concept, you know... as it's not really saying what is commonly thought, that it all begins and ends with respect (to each other), but that each training session begins and ends with an acknowledgement of the previous generations, the particular guardian deities associated with the art and dojo, and so on... in other words, with a ritual based in Shinto beliefs and thoughts.

So, what I was saying was that to participate in a Japanese martial art without acknowledging the reality that much of what you're doing is, indeed, religious in base, intent, and even deed, is to miss so much of the point and reality of what you're doing that it's like thinking tennis is just the hitting of a ball with a racquet. Perhaps it makes more sense to you to say that it's like tennis without the scoring, then? The actions are ostensibly the same, as are the surrounds, but there's really none of the point (of course, by simply keeping the surrounds the same in a martial art, you're now already in a religious building/environment... hence my removal of the lines of the court in the first case).

I would argue that it's religious in background. That doesn't mean it's still religious. Much of the "secular" side of Christmas is a hold-over from pagan traditions of the Yule. It's not religious anymore for most people (I certainly have no religious connection to a Christmas tree), though that's where it came from.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fair enough. How do you console that with Christianity?

Say if someone suggests it is the worship of a false idol. Or work on a sabbith or something.

I'd just tell them it's only worship if you're worshiping.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Very much my opinion on the matter. I am a heathen raised in a family of heathens. But my parents thought it was important that we understand at least some of what most everyone around us believed. So, as a kid, I went to a Catholic school for a few years, as well as a Lutheran school. I participated in the rituals and devotions and prayers, and don't think too much about it one way or the other. While I have no doubt that some of the other kids were actively worshipping, others, like myself, were simply, respectfully participating.

One can go to an Aikido school and mimic the motions out of respect, without moving into the category of worship.

But the larger issue, I think, is one that I believe Chris Parker is trying to raise. Or maybe I don't understand him. But I THINK he's suggesting that if you aren't worshipping and are just going through the motions, you aren't REALLY training in that art. I'm a guy who doesn't like the idea of bowing to O Sensei, and won't do it... is it impossible for me to learn aikido? Seems like Chris Parker is saying yes, I might train something, but it wouldn't be Aikido.

Or maybe I have it all wrong.

I have no problem bowing to a picture. It's weird to me - just a different starting ritual than I'm used to - but I've done it when attending seminars at dojos in Ueshiba's Aikido, and when visiting some.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had successive posts "liked" by @drop bear and @Steve. What the hell is wrong with this thread???

 

[Steve]

You're starting to come around. What can I say?

 

[drop bear]

I had successive posts "liked" by @drop bear and @Steve. What the hell is wrong with this thread???

Credit where credit is due.

 

[TSDTexan]

Hmm... Leaving off the whole Christian ideology and other issues, I just wanted to address one aspect of this thread, namely, that of the bowing in Japanese arts.

It is religious. Deal with it.

To be clear, I'm talking specifically about things like the bowing to the founder/kamiza/kamidana/shomen at the beginning and end of class, more than bowing to partners before and after training, although the influence there is something that should always be considered as well. But that initial bow? It's a Shinto ritual. Whether or not your dojo points that out, makes a big deal about it, mentions it at all, or is even in any real way aware of it, it is a Shinto ritual. Hell, the dojo's structure is based (largely) on Shinto shrines or temples... the word "dojo" itself comes from Buddhism... and many martial traditions have their origins centred in Buddhist Temples or Shinto Shrines, with deep historical, geographical, philosophical, and spiritual connections to these religious forms.

Obviously, this is something that has it's origins in older arts... however, the basic ideas, forms, structures, rituals, and more are just as present in modern arts... Judo and Aikido classes begin with a bow towards the front of the dojo, commonly with a picture of Kano or Ueshiba, or perhaps a senior founder of the line you're studying... this is a Shinto bow. It is showing respect for those that have come before you, yeah... but that's pretty much a core aspect of Shinto in the first place. Sometimes you'll see a few claps between two bows... which is designed to both scare off potentially ill-intended spirits, and awaken protective ones... very much Shinto. If there's a small model building at the front of the dojo, that's a kamidana... a house for spirits. The front of the dojo is called the kamiza... where the spirits sit.

What all of this means is that, if you don't attribute any religious aspects to the building, the activities engaged in, the rituals, and so on, you're denying much of why what you're doing is there in the first place... you're, essentially, ignoring large parts of what you do... which leads to you missing many of the lessons and their reasons. Can you do that? Sure... but it's like learning to play tennis by only limiting yourself to forehand lobs, and ignoring where the lines are on the court... sure, you'll have fun hitting a ball around, but are you really playing tennis? Or just hitting a ball with a racquet?

As a result, I'm completely with Paul when he said he told the guy who came along that he'd never make him do anything that went against his religious beliefs as he walked him out the door... I'd do the same thing. From my perspective, and I'd suggest probably Paul's as well, if you're not going to do the thing, don't do the thing. Additionally, if your religion forbids something, then you can't do it... unless you want to go against your religion. And that's a spiritual choice the person needs to make for themselves. But to say "well, we don't think of it as a religious action" is kinda irrelevant... you may class yourself as a vegetarian, but when you're eating steak, not thinking of it as once being a cow doesn't change what it is.

Thing is, from a Japanese religious perspective, there's no conflict having multiple religious influences and beliefs... you can follow Shinto practices, attend a Buddhist temple, embrace Taoism (another influence on the dojo that adds more layers to things), and, from a Japanese perspective, also be a Christian. It's really only the Western religions that turn around and, essentially, say "my way only"... even when the difference is minimalist, only the one form that's being followed by the person in question is the "right" one... so the restriction will come from the Western religious side of things.

Of course, this whole idea of "Christian Karate" or similar strikes me as highly amusing... as the idea is often to have a martial art that is devoid of Eastern religious ideals and concepts... but are universally done by people with such a lack of insight into such concepts that they don't even know what is or is not influenced by, or are outright Eastern religious aspects and concepts there in the first place. The only safe way to not have any Japanese religious aspect is simply... do boxing. If you're doing karate, or anything similar and based in such systems, then the simple fact is, you're engaging in Japanese religious practices... even when you don't know you are.

One of the few times I find myself in complete agreement with you.

I am a Kyu belt within a Okinawan Karatedo, and at the Dojo its very stripped down. Almost Zen in its austerity.

But, we have our bows... oh yeah we do.

As I am a Christian, but an atypical one at that, I don't feel troubled in my conscience with regard to a juxtaposition of opposing beliefs.

There are none.

There are some issues that are not fundamental. And a few that are.

The Trinity, the virgin birth, the sinless life, substituionary death and resurrection, that salvation is a free gift of God, not earned by works...
I will die on that hill, I cannot surrender those things.

But..

If my school added a cubbyhole shrine with a statue of Buddha, and required me to burn incense to it, and bow before it... I would have to exit from training there.

If there was a cubbyhole, and other students were allowed to light incense, on a opt out volunteer basis. My conscience would not be offended, but I would keep my silence in criticism of other's beliefs.

If outside of class I were pressured into a criticism of my fellow students beliefs, I would remain silent. Even if I have a personal opinion that opposes their beliefs.

I am there to train in the martial art of karate... not critique religious beliefs of others. And its their own life, and path to walk.

At minimum I would offer prayers that Christ would provide salvation for them, and awaken them to their condition.

And if asked by a fellow students, outside of a class session, outside of the dojo... I would openly share the gospel, and the impact of Christ on my life.

But I don't believe Christian martial artists ever need to evangelize in class, in fact, that would be imho inappropriate.

But there is no contradiction between being a follower of Christ, and a practicing jma martial artist, if one treads carefully.
/bow

 

[Juany118]

I would argue that it's religious in background. That doesn't mean it's still religious. Much of the "secular" side of Christmas is a hold-over from pagan traditions of the Yule. It's not religious anymore for most people (I certainly have no religious connection to a Christmas tree), though that's where it came from.

I would agree. When someone sneezes even some atheists I know say "god bless you" on reflex. When you speak of "breaking bread" with someone the reference has its origin in the Gospel of Matthew. So many things in life have an origin that is somehow related to religion it isn't funny. That doesn't mean the statements or rituals still maintain their religious meaning.

This isn't to say that you should make someone do something against their religious beliefs. Only to say that the meaning of certain things change overtime and become formalized secular rituals, or can be done to simply show respect to another vs one that is showing adherence to an article of faith.

As an example I went to a Synagogue a few times with a girl I dated many years ago. I wore a kippa out of respect even though I was raised Catholic. If I went to a Mosque I would take off my shoes.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hmm... Leaving off the whole Christian ideology and other issues, I just wanted to address one aspect of this thread, namely, that of the bowing in Japanese arts.

It is religious. Deal with it.

To be clear, I'm talking specifically about things like the bowing to the founder/kamiza/kamidana/shomen at the beginning and end of class, more than bowing to partners before and after training, although the influence there is something that should always be considered as well. But that initial bow? It's a Shinto ritual. Whether or not your dojo points that out, makes a big deal about it, mentions it at all, or is even in any real way aware of it, it is a Shinto ritual. Hell, the dojo's structure is based (largely) on Shinto shrines or temples... the word "dojo" itself comes from Buddhism... and many martial traditions have their origins centred in Buddhist Temples or Shinto Shrines, with deep historical, geographical, philosophical, and spiritual connections to these religious forms.

Obviously, this is something that has it's origins in older arts... however, the basic ideas, forms, structures, rituals, and more are just as present in modern arts... Judo and Aikido classes begin with a bow towards the front of the dojo, commonly with a picture of Kano or Ueshiba, or perhaps a senior founder of the line you're studying... this is a Shinto bow. It is showing respect for those that have come before you, yeah... but that's pretty much a core aspect of Shinto in the first place. Sometimes you'll see a few claps between two bows... which is designed to both scare off potentially ill-intended spirits, and awaken protective ones... very much Shinto. If there's a small model building at the front of the dojo, that's a kamidana... a house for spirits. The front of the dojo is called the kamiza... where the spirits sit.

What all of this means is that, if you don't attribute any religious aspects to the building, the activities engaged in, the rituals, and so on, you're denying much of why what you're doing is there in the first place... you're, essentially, ignoring large parts of what you do... which leads to you missing many of the lessons and their reasons. Can you do that? Sure... but it's like learning to play tennis by only limiting yourself to forehand lobs, and ignoring where the lines are on the court... sure, you'll have fun hitting a ball around, but are you really playing tennis? Or just hitting a ball with a racquet?

As a result, I'm completely with Paul when he said he told the guy who came along that he'd never make him do anything that went against his religious beliefs as he walked him out the door... I'd do the same thing. From my perspective, and I'd suggest probably Paul's as well, if you're not going to do the thing, don't do the thing. Additionally, if your religion forbids something, then you can't do it... unless you want to go against your religion. And that's a spiritual choice the person needs to make for themselves. But to say "well, we don't think of it as a religious action" is kinda irrelevant... you may class yourself as a vegetarian, but when you're eating steak, not thinking of it as once being a cow doesn't change what it is.

Thing is, from a Japanese religious perspective, there's no conflict having multiple religious influences and beliefs... you can follow Shinto practices, attend a Buddhist temple, embrace Taoism (another influence on the dojo that adds more layers to things), and, from a Japanese perspective, also be a Christian. It's really only the Western religions that turn around and, essentially, say "my way only"... even when the difference is minimalist, only the one form that's being followed by the person in question is the "right" one... so the restriction will come from the Western religious side of things.

Of course, this whole idea of "Christian Karate" or similar strikes me as highly amusing... as the idea is often to have a martial art that is devoid of Eastern religious ideals and concepts... but are universally done by people with such a lack of insight into such concepts that they don't even know what is or is not influenced by, or are outright Eastern religious aspects and concepts there in the first place. The only safe way to not have any Japanese religious aspect is simply... do boxing. If you're doing karate, or anything similar and based in such systems, then the simple fact is, you're engaging in Japanese religious practices... even when you don't know you are.

I'd say that there is a major difference between the historical origin of something and its current meaning. It's the intent behind an action which makes it religious or not. I celebrate Christmas. I am not a Christian. What I celebrate is a secular holiday of good will and gift giving which happens to share the date, name and some of the pagan-derived window dressing as the religious holiday my Christian friends celebrate. (Interesting philosophical/theological question - if a Christian celebrates Christmas but is internally focused primarily/entirely on the gifts and the pagan-derived pageantry rather than on the birth of Christ, are they truly carrying out a Christian religious practice?)

Likewise, if a Karateka bows to a picture of the founder and claps his hands out of tradition, without any concern for or belief in spirits, is he or she practicing Shintoism? I would say no.

This is very different from the nature of a cow. Regardless of your attitude towards a cow - whether you see it as a sacred animal, a pet, or a tasty meal - it's still a hooved quadruped made out of meat.

The next question is, does a Karateka's practice become less valuable or meaningful if he or she doesn't share in or care about the religious beliefs of the art's founders? Once again, I would say no. If you view Karate as just a vehicle for transmitting the cultural values of the original practitioners, I suppose you might disagree. Nevertheless, there are millions of Karate practitioners around the world who find value in their practice, even if they have brought their own meaning to the cultural trappings and rituals which have been carried along with the art.

 

[Steve]

I'd say that there is a major difference between the historical origin of something and its current meaning. It's the intent behind an action which makes it religious or not. I celebrate Christmas. I am not a Christian. What I celebrate is a secular holiday of good will and gift giving which happens to share the date, name and some of the pagan-derived window dressing as the religious holiday my Christian friends celebrate. (Interesting philosophical/theological question - if a Christian celebrates Christmas but is internally focused primarily/entirely on the gifts and the pagan-derived pageantry rather than on the birth of Christ, are they truly carrying out a Christian religious practice?)

Likewise, if a Karateka bows to a picture of the founder and claps his hands out of tradition, without any concern for or belief in spirits, is he or she practicing Shintoism? I would say no.

This is very different from the nature of a cow. Regardless of your attitude towards a cow - whether you see it as a sacred animal, a pet, or a tasty meal - it's still a hooved quadruped made out of meat.

The next question is, does a Karateka's practice become less valuable or meaningful if he or she doesn't share in or care about the religious beliefs of the art's founders? Once again, I would say no. If you view Karate as just a vehicle for transmitting the cultural values of the original practitioners, I suppose you might disagree. Nevertheless, there are millions of Karate practitioners around the world who find value in their practice, even if they have brought their own meaning to the cultural trappings and rituals which have been carried along with the art.

Yes. Exactly.

 

[John Brewer]

I think this is a touchy subject for some. For me what is in my heart when I bow is what counts.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'd say that there is a major difference between the historical origin of something and its current meaning. It's the intent behind an action which makes it religious or not. I celebrate Christmas. I am not a Christian. What I celebrate is a secular holiday of good will and gift giving which happens to share the date, name and some of the pagan-derived window dressing as the religious holiday my Christian friends celebrate. (Interesting philosophical/theological question - if a Christian celebrates Christmas but is internally focused primarily/entirely on the gifts and the pagan-derived pageantry rather than on the birth of Christ, are they truly carrying out a Christian religious practice?)

Likewise, if a Karateka bows to a picture of the founder and claps his hands out of tradition, without any concern for or belief in spirits, is he or she practicing Shintoism? I would say no.

This is very different from the nature of a cow. Regardless of your attitude towards a cow - whether you see it as a sacred animal, a pet, or a tasty meal - it's still a hooved quadruped made out of meat.

The next question is, does a Karateka's practice become less valuable or meaningful if he or she doesn't share in or care about the religious beliefs of the art's founders? Once again, I would say no. If you view Karate as just a vehicle for transmitting the cultural values of the original practitioners, I suppose you might disagree. Nevertheless, there are millions of Karate practitioners around the world who find value in their practice, even if they have brought their own meaning to the cultural trappings and rituals which have been carried along with the art.

I couldn't have said it better

 

[Flying Crane]

I would agree. When someone sneezes even some atheists I know say "god bless you" on reflex. When you speak of "breaking bread" with someone the reference has its origin in the Gospel of Matthew. So many things in life have an origin that is somehow related to religion it isn't funny. That doesn't mean the statements or rituals still maintain their religious meaning.

This isn't to say that you should make someone do something against their religious beliefs. Only to say that the meaning of certain things change overtime and become formalized secular rituals, or can be done to simply show respect to another vs one that is showing adherence to an article of faith.

As an example I went to a Synagogue a few times with a girl I dated many years ago. I wore a kippa out of respect even though I was raised Catholic. If I went to a Mosque I would take off my shoes.

I'm going to guess that the "breaking bread" reference has an older origin than the gospel of Matthew, and older than the birth of Jesus.

 

[Juany118]

I'm going to guess that the "breaking bread" reference has an older origin than the gospel of Matthew, and older than the birth of Jesus.

I would as well, but as far as people using "written text" as a historical reference, that is apparently one of, if not the first that falls into a religious context at least

 

[Flying Crane]

At minimum I would offer prayers that Christ would provide salvation for them, and awaken them to their condition.

See, I actually find this statement to be incredibly judgmental and offensive.

I certainly don't need the prayers, and I resent the judgement over my life that is implied if someone would ever tell me they will pray for me. Or if i think or otherwise know they are praying for me.

Don't bother. No thanks.

And yes, I find it offensive when my mother does it too.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would as well, but as far as people using "written text" as a historical reference, that is apparently one of, if not the first that falls into a religious context at least

That may be, but if it was written down, it was certainly a vocal/oral habit long long before that happened.

 

[Juany118]

That may be, but if it was written down, it was certainly a vocal/oral habit long long before that happened.

One could argue that of virtually anything. As an example, many species of animal prostrate themselves to show submission to a dominant member of the species. So one could argue that logic dictates that primitive man did the same prior to it being used in as religious context.

You can even, sorta, see this dynamic at work in western history. Servants would kneel on both knees to their master. Then eventually it was felt that should be reserved for God, so people would kneel on one knee. This evolved into a courtesy and then in the 1600s the bow became vogue for males. I do Renaissance reenactments so I know this geeky stuff .

 

[TSDTexan]

See, I actually find this statement to be incredibly judgmental and offensive.

I certainly don't need the prayers, and I resent the judgement over my life that is implied if someone would ever tell me they will pray for me. Or if i think or otherwise know they are praying for me.

Don't bother. No thanks.

And yes, I find it offensive when my mother does it too.

Actually, you made an assumption here.

I never let the object of my prayers know that I am praying on their behalf.

The one exception is if said subject asked me to pray for them.


And to for one to resent a presumption of judgment and to assume or think someone is praying for you when they have never spoken or otherwise given indication that they are is....

well... foolishness and a waste of energy, time and emotion... which leads to negativity and a needless loss of mutual goodwill between classmates.

In the end it is not beneficial.
Life is far too short to make such leaps to conclusions and harbor resentment.

As for me, I take any moment that I am offended, as one of life's learning moments, and seek to understand the lesson behind the incident.

Most of the time, pride and ego are overinflated at the time I became offended.

Why should I even care if another person judges me? It doesn't matter if the judgement is valid or off base all together.

If it has value that will help me better my self.. then reflection and corrective action are in order, otherwise, its just part of the signal to noise ratio that is discarded.

An application of a word of wisdom from Big Brother Bruce:
"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own"

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually, you made an assumption here.

I never let the object of my prayers know that I am praying on their behalf.

The one exception is if said subject asked me to pray for them.


And to for one to resent a presumption of judgment and to assume or think someone is praying for you when they have never spoken or otherwise given indication that they are is.... well... foolishness and a waste of energy, time and emotion... which leads to negativity and a needless loss of mutual goodwill between classmates.

If I have no idea someone is doing it, then it doesn't matter. Some people are not as good at keeping it to themselves as others are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See, I actually find this statement to be incredibly judgmental and offensive.

I certainly don't need the prayers, and I resent the judgement over my life that is implied if someone would ever tell me they will pray for me. Or if i think or otherwise know they are praying for me.

Don't bother. No thanks.

And yes, I find it offensive when my mother does it too.

I used to be bothered by this. But now I take a different view. If you knew someone was going through an addiction, you'd wish for them to get help, even if they weren't yet ready for help. This is the way many Christians view those of us who are not of their faith. They see us in peril, and want us not to be, so they pray. It does us no harm, and is well-intended. I'd be (and have been) irritated if they feel the need to tell me to "repent - you are going to Hell!" But if they want to quietly pray for me, I don't really care. I'd prefer they not tell me - there's some different motivation going on when they feel the need to tell me.