Turning revisted...comments pls

[Poor Uke]

So recently I was talking to a guy from a different WC school to the one I attended and the subject of turning reared its ugly head. I'll summarise the conversation...

Him : We dont turn on the heels because that was something that was taught to westerners due to them being too fat to turn on the balls of their feet.

Me : WTF?!?

I didnt say that.

Me : Oh really, I was told that turning on the heels was developed for people with smaller builds who were being wieghed down by a bigger opponent, thus giving the smaller person a structural advantage and expending less energy to boot.

Him : silence

I have no real strong opinions about right or wrong. I can see the advantages of heels and balls of the feet. I am more interested in rationales that people have been given for the particular turning techs you have been taught.

Thanks...

 

[geezer]

I have no real strong opinions about right or wrong. I can see the advantages of heels and balls of the feet. I am more interested in rationales that people have been given for the particular turning techs you have been taught.

We turn on the center of our feet, moving only one foot at a time. It allows one foot to be rooted at any given point in the turn and prevents you from being overcommitted to the front or rear. It also complements our weighting.... 100% weight-shift and allows us to shift our center laterally as we turn, effectively off-lining as we receive a centerline attack.

That said, do what works for you. Each method has certain advantages and disadvantages.The simultaneous two-footed turn on the heels is very fast. Turning on the toes adds forward energy and may be advantageous to an aggressive approach.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Well said geezer, in application I sometimes find myself turning with both feet to add momentum and speed to my attacks, even though I probably shouldn't break from our foundation before I have some level of (mastertice?) I thought that was a word!

 

[Vajramusti]

So recently I was talking to a guy from a different WC school to the one I attended and the subject of turning reared its ugly head. I'll summarise the conversation...

Him : We dont turn on the heels because that was something that was taught to westerners due to them being too fat to turn on the balls of their feet.

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LOL- one can hear all sorts of things. Ip Man, Wong Shon Leung and Ho Kam ming were/are not westerners. They turned their whole feet, pivoting on the heels. I pivot on the heels with both knees working together at the same time...turning 45 degree each side for a total of 90 degrees in chum kiu for devlopmental purposes. In application I turn as is necessary- could be a micro turn.

Leung Shun turned as Geezer describes...LT was in the LS line at the start of his training.

TWC folks step more than they turn- the starting position of their toes are not inwards,

Do what works for you...is probably good advice.Different people have made variations of all three methods work for them.

joy chaudhuri

 

[mook jong man]

We pivot on the centre of the feet , weight is distributed equally to both feet, the balance and stability of the stance is maintained all through out the pivot.

The body rotates evenly on a central axis much like a spinning bicycle wheel turned horizontally.

This means in theory that It should take the least amount of effort to rotate my body mass either left or right and have equal power in pulling or pushing motions , and by the same token being centred means we should have equal resistance against pulling or pushing motions used against us.

I can certainly see the argument that other methods of pivoting using the heels or the balls of the foot would have less surface area of the foot in contact with the ground and result in less friction and may even produce a faster pivot , although personally I think this is neglible.

There is going to be an upside and a downside to any pivoting method , but whichever stance or pivoting method you use it should be stable and be able to handle heavy outside force from pretty much any direction.

One exercise we like to do is one person folds his arms into the Lan Sau position and the partner holding a kicking shield runs into them full pelt , the Wing Chun guy then attempts to nullify the force of his partners charge with a stable and well timed pivot.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Vajramusti: Thanks a lot, I was not aware that WSL turned the same way LT does, I wonder if you may have any insight into how he devised his other footwork, seems so unique to that lineage, let alone any other martial art system, I've asked everyone I could, but never heard about the connection between the turning, a new piece to the puzzle!

 

[mook jong man]

My thoughts.

 

[yak sao]

Emin used to like to use the bullfighter analogy with regards to pivoting. ( I've seen LT use it too)
A bullfighter keeps the cape in front of him as the bull charges. Then when he turns, he leaves the cape in front of him while he pivots/and laterally shifts to the side, removing his target area away from the bull.

When we pivot we stay behind our hands, but move our target area away from the opponent in much the same way.

We cannot control the strength of our opponent, however we can control our response to it. Rather than pushing our opponent's arm away as we pivot, we push ourselves away from our opponent.
By using our arms to gauge his force, it prevents us from turning too soon, too late, not enough or too much.

 

[Vajramusti]

Vajramusti: Thanks a lot, I was not aware that WSL turned the same way LT does, I wonder if you may have any insight into how he devised his other footwork, seems so unique to that lineage, let alone any other martial art system, I've asked everyone I could, but never heard about the connection between the turning, a new piece to the puzzle!

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NO NO- not wsl-(re read please) wsl pivoted on his heel.
Leung Ting's turn is more like leung Shun- Ip man;s first HK student.
Leung Ting's forst teacher wasa student of leung Shun.

joy chaudhuri

 

[Vajramusti]

My thoughts.

Nice diagram...but I differ.Pivoting on the heel does NOT mean leaning back on the heel. The gravitational path down from the leg lines up with the center of the heel... the foot is flat and the toes help with controlling the ground. The coordination of the angles of the ankes , knees, the kua, the tailbone. a straight lower back. a raised head and tucked chin all contribute to stable skeletal structure that also adjust s to stress.We test it all the time.When you are on flat ground-the center of the foot unless one is very flatfooted does not have good enough contact for pivoting- you end up pivoting on the back end of the ball of the feet which throws the axis off. But folks can make things work-ok by me.Just stating what I do.

joy chaudhuri

 

[geezer]

Vajramusti: Thanks a lot, I was not aware that WSL turned the same way LT does, I wonder if you may have any insight into how he devised his other footwork, seems so unique to that lineage, let alone any other martial art system, I've asked everyone I could, but never heard about the connection between the turning, a new piece to the puzzle!

No, not Wong Shun Leung (WSL), but Leung Sheung, the first student of Grandmaster Yip in Hong Kong, who along with Lok Yiu and Tsui Sheung Tin (Mook's Si-Gung) were the first three Hong Kong students. Leung Ting was originally a student of Leung Sheung although the two did not get along, so LT for a long time wouldn't even speak his name in public.

Nab... I find this detail interesting too. I didn't know that LT got his take on the turning stance from Leung Sheung either. See, we actually do learn something from hanging out on this forum!

Oh here's something else on the topic. Some groups don't shift their vertical axis when they turn. If they keep their weighting at 50%-50% over each foot, they rotate but do not shift their center laterally. Those who shift their weight strongly to the back foot (like all the "WT" offshoots, for example) do shift their center of mass laterally when turning, and use that sideward shift to evade the oncoming force of an attack. That's the "bullfighter" thing you were talking about. Our hands shield us like the bullfighter's cape while we slip aside, moving out of the line of the oncoming attack just as the bullfighter side-steps the charging bull.

 

[mook jong man]

Nice diagram...but I differ.Pivoting on the heel does NOT mean leaning back on the heel. The gravitational path down from the leg lines up with the center of the heel... the foot is flat and the toes help with controlling the ground. The coordination of the angles of the ankes , knees, the kua, the tailbone. a straight lower back. a raised head and tucked chin all contribute to stable skeletal structure that also adjust s to stress.We test it all the time.When you are on flat ground-the center of the foot unless one is very flatfooted does not have good enough contact for pivoting- you end up pivoting on the back end of the ball of the feet which throws the axis off. But folks can make things work-ok by me.Just stating what I do.

joy chaudhuri

I should have added that we use a slight gripping action of the toes which increases the surface area of the foot in contact with the ground thus increasing the stability of the stance.

So the toes , balls of feet , and heels will all be in contact with the ground , but we still pivot from the centre of the foot .
In fact we are taught very early on to visualise nails driven straight through the middle of each foot and into the floor to help with perfecting this method of pivoting.

If we are talking skeletally then yes the gravitational path does go down the legs and out through the middle of the heel.

But I am talking about the centre of the body mass , my argument is that hypothetically speaking If I were to drop a plumb bob straight down through the middle of my skull , down through the centre of my body , it would exit somewhere between the wedding tackle and where the sun don't shine , and the spot where it hits the floor would be approximately the midline of my feet.

Now it doesn't give you any extra reach to strike your opponent or move you out of the way of the opponents strike , but it does give you a very efficient method of rotating the body forward or backward at high speed whilst still maintaining perfect balance.

 

[mook jong man]

I can only draw stick men , so this is the best image I could find.
While its not a totally accurate portrayal of the correct Wing Chun stance it does help illustrate the vertical axis passing down through the centre of the body.

 

[Vajramusti]

I can only draw stick men , so this is the best image I could find.
While its not a totally accurate portrayal of the correct Wing Chun stance it does help illustrate the vertical axis passing down through the centre of the body.

It's ok mook jonng man- we just have different perspective and views. I envy your talent for illustration. If I had your talent the details of the structure would be a little different and the gravitational path would be at the center of the line between the heels.

joy chaudhuri

 

[geezer]

I can only draw stick men , so this is the best image I could find.
While its not a totally accurate portrayal of the correct Wing Chun stance it does help illustrate the vertical axis passing down through the centre of the body.

Great illustration. That's exactly the way we conceive of the "vertical axis", and like you guys, we turn on the center of the feet, but unlike your system, we shift our weight the rear foot. So, seen from the front, that vertical axis moves laterally from side to side proportionately to the width of our stance. The advantage of this is the "off-lining" or "bullfighter effect" which puts you out of the path of your opponent's attack. The disadvantage is that it may slow your turn down a bit and increases the distance between you and your target, namely your opponent's center. Everything is a trade-off.

 

[mook jong man]

It's ok mook jonng man- we just have different perspective and views. I envy your talent for illustration. If I had your talent the details of the structure would be a little different and the gravitational path would be at the center of the line between the heels.

joy chaudhuri

No worries at all Joy , it would be a very boring world if we all thought the same wouldn't it.
Its great to just converse about technical aspects of the various lineages with intelligent people such as yourself.

Don't envy my illustrative talent Joy , its just a combination of google image search and google sketch up , not much talent involved at all unfortunately.

 

[mook jong man]

Great illustration. That's exactly the way we conceive of the "vertical axis", and like you guys, we turn on the center of the feet, but unlike your system, we shift our weight the rear foot. So, seen from the front, that vertical axis moves laterally from side to side proportionately to the width of our stance. The advantage of this is the "off-lining" or "bullfighter effect" which puts you out of the path of your opponent's attack. The disadvantage is that it may slow your turn down a bit and increases the distance between you and your target, namely your opponent's center. Everything is a trade-off.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[Vajramusti]

No worries at all Joy , it would be a very boring world if we all thought the same wouldn't it.
Its great to just converse about technical aspects of the various lineages with intelligent people such as yourself.

Don't envy my illustrative talent Joy , its just a combination of google image search and google sketch up , not much talent involved at all unfortunately.

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No worries at all. Thx. That is the great thing about this list- that we can discuss and share our experiences and ideas without being disagreeable.

joy chaudhuri