True Full Contact Sparring in Wing Chun

[StormShadow]

Sparring in a fashion such as this is good every once in a while (without padding ( maybe only a cup)) but doing it regularly, well... if you do not need to work than it's ok.

http://youtu.be/HKl9vp2PIyU

 

[mook jong man]

Sparring in a fashion such as this is good every once in a while (without padding ( maybe only a cup)) but doing it regularly, well... if you do not need to work than it's ok.

http://youtu.be/HKl9vp2PIyU

I think I already dissected this one a few months ago , it's garbage.
The people appear to be novices judging by the way basic Wing Chun concepts and tactics are totally ignored.

The errors going on here are too numerous too mention , but the main one that stands out is the "bridging the gap" or should I say the lack thereof.
No one who has trained under a genuine Wing Chun master will launch a single kick ( most of which were initiated ridiculously out of range ) and then stop and jump back out to kicking range again.

The properly trained person will launch the kick once they are in range , and then get in close and stay there.
You could probably break it down into four stages.
Bridging the gap - using a kick
Then stepping down from the kick into punching range .
Then chi sau range - trapping , lap sau etc
Then close range finishing techniques like knee strikes and elbow strikes.
So we have basically four stages if we leave out grappling , which you could easily find yourself in if you don't do your job properly in the punching and chi sau ranges.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think I already dissected this one a few months ago , it's garbage.

You remember correctly.

From my non-WC perspective, its a better emulation than most (it isnt as blatantly obvious as some other emulations), but either they arent good at being efficient (repeatedly throwing the same punch when that punch is not working is not efficient, and nor is kicking during a hand-to-hand exchange... actually, i think thats the problem. An exchange is happening.

 

[mook jong man]

You remember correctly.

From my non-WC perspective, its a better emulation than most (it isnt as blatantly obvious as some other emulations), but either they arent good at being efficient (repeatedly throwing the same punch when that punch is not working is not efficient, and nor is kicking during a hand-to-hand exchange... actually, i think thats the problem. An exchange is happening.

Well from my perspective as someone who has witnessed high level Wing Chun and been on the receiving end of it , you can trust me when I say it is very poor Wing Chun , in fact it is bordering on not even being Wing Chun at all.

You can throw exactly the same punch all the time , that is what we do , always down the centerline , that is not the issue.
The issue is they don't do anything with that punch , they do not use it to gain contact or a bridge with the opponent , or move in and trap and gain control.

They throw a couple of punches and then jump right out of range again , they seem to be very adverse to getting in close and actually using their chi sau to gain control of the opponents limbs.

That's why these Wing Chun vs Wing Chun sparring things are always B.S , we have a method of sparring and it is called "chi sau sparring" .
The reason we use it is because among properly trained practitioners it always ends up in chi sau range anyway even if it starts at long range , so we just cut straight to the chase and start in close range.

If those people were trained properly it would have been one jam of the kick and then straight into something that would look like chi sau sparring , but since they appear to lack any skill in chi sau , they break off instead of staying in close and gaining control.

Full contact Wing Chun is a fallacy anyway , if I am using full contact I will be moving in with my full body mass.
If I do a double palm strike to your head , you will either die or you will be going to hospital with a broken neck.

You can put helmets and gear on , and have contact , but it won't be full contact , it will be semi contact or people will be going to the hospital.
Because of the way Wing Chun punches are delivered with the elbow down and going up at an angle to the jaw , forget about the trauma to the brain they put a lot of stress on the neck.
I can definitely feel the stress in my neck when I've been hit with half power ones while wearing a helmet , so there is no way I want to be hit by a full powered one by someone who knows what they are doing.

Think of a steel pole mounted on a brick wall , the pole is sticking out horizontally from the brick wall.
Now imagine walking briskly into the end of that steel pole and letting it hit you in the jaw , and you will have some idea of what it feels like to be punched in Wing Chun.

 

[StormShadow]

I really do not believe chi sau "sparring" is actually sparring but meant to refine skills, build sensitivity and such. If you aren't testing your skills in at least a controlled situation, full speed, using the principles of wing chun to "win" or overcome your opponent then it isn't really sparring imo. Sparring is used to refine your skills in a more "fight like" situation. Of course sparring is controlled and not an all out fight but it's merely a tool to ingrain your skills. Pretty much the same as chi sau and in this sense you are correct but it's not a "fight like" situation and preparing you for everything that goes along with that. Just also a tool to enhance, ingrain, refine and build sensitivity.

 

[StormShadow]

I do agree these students look pretty novice with this event taking place somewhere in asia. Looks like an match between two different schools. I also hear and see many times others critique the wing chun of another saying, they aren't doing it correctly or they didn't do this or that but until your in a true fight situation, how do you know exactly what you've practice will look picture perfect on the streets when it's will against will. Even mike tyson said everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth.

 

[mook jong man]

I really do not believe chi sau "sparring" is actually sparring but meant to refine skills, build sensitivity and such. If you aren't testing your skills in at least a controlled situation, full speed, using the principles of wing chun to "win" or overcome your opponent then it isn't really sparring imo. Sparring is used to refine your skills in a more "fight like" situation. Of course sparring is controlled and not an all out fight but it's merely a tool to ingrain your skills. Pretty much the same as chi sau and in this sense you are correct but it's not a "fight like" situation and preparing you for everything that goes along with that. Just also a tool to enhance, ingrain, refine and build sensitivity.

As I have said many times chi sau encompasses rather a large territory , it can be anything from light compliant rolling to the more aggressive non compliant full speed trapping and striking.
Tsui Seung Tin has stated that it is Wing Chun's own unique method of sparring to prepare for close range combat.
You go into his school in Hong Kong and you will be doing hours of it.

When two well trained Wing Chun guys engage from distance , what do you think happens?
I will tell you exactly what happens , one or both of them initiate kicks and then it ends up straight into chi sau range , they will start punching , one will put up a Seung Bong to defend and then it's into Lap Sau until one can trap the other and strike through.
If your good you can be defending upstairs with the Lap Sau and low heel kicking his knees/shins at the same time.

If you want to do that type of sparring from out of range then it is probably better to have one partner using non Wing Chun attacks , rather than both Wing Chun guys using Wing Chun because as I said it always ends up into chi sau sparring anyway.

Chi Sau is a very good defence mechanism , we project a revolving cone like structure with the point focused at the opponents centerline .
If we do this properly with the correct arm structures and an even flow of force , the opponent cannot find a gap to strike through , a bit like a shield.

Yes it is used to develop attributes like sensitivity etc , but the structures are also directly applicable to real fighting.
We are working out the best way to use the strong points of our arms to attack the weak points of theirs.

I totally reject this passive version of chi sau for anyone other than beginners , once you can do the basic movements and have a half decent stance you should be moving around , pivoting , and executing different traps and attacks while rolling.

How are you ever going to find out where the gaps are in your chi sau , whether your Fook Sau is on center or if your Bong Sau is crossing over a bit if no one ever tries to trap or strike through these structures and shows you these errors.
Take for example a very common attack done in chi sau , the palm strike to the chest from the Tan Sau position , it is one of the movements used in single arm sticking hands .

A very simple attack and quite easy to stop in single sticking hands when you have to only worry about one hand , but when you start doing double sticking hands and have to concentrate on both your hands doing different things at once and also adding moving around and randomness then it becomes a whole new ball game.
What was an easy attack to stop in single arm chi sau suddenly has become a lot harder to stop in double arm chi sau.
In time as your skill develops you will also be able to stop this attack even while your other arm is defending an attack at the same time.

But unless your partner is at least some of the time trying to strike your chest with a full speed and full power palm strike to your chest while you are moving around and rolling , then you will probably never develop the precision an focus needed under dynamic conditions to be able to counter that palm strike because all your training has been conducted in static , controlled , compliant chi sau.
To be able to stay focused and keep that Fook Sau dead on center even when the action is speeding up and you are moving around is another level of skill altogether
If all your training is just standing there rolling in isolation and no one moves around or attacks , how on earth are you ever going to learn to deal with force , how are you going to learn how to move your body mass and affect your opponents structure.

 

[mook jong man]

I do agree these students look pretty novice with this event taking place somewhere in asia. Looks like an match between two different schools. I also hear and see many times others critique the wing chun of another saying, they aren't doing it correctly or they didn't do this or that but until your in a true fight situation, how do you know exactly what you've practice will look picture perfect on the streets when it's will against will. Even mike tyson said everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth.

Things do degrade under the pressure of a real situation , but the basics do not disappear if the past training has been conducted properly
Simple techniques like the continuous punch and low heel kicks will be used in favor over advanced techniques.
But the basic instinct to get in close and stay in close developed by chi sau training should not disappear if the student has done enough of it.

And as I have said before on here if your not getting hit sometimes in your training you are not training fast enough or close enough.

 

[yak sao]

I do agree these students look pretty novice with this event taking place somewhere in asia. Looks like an match between two different schools. I also hear and see many times others critique the wing chun of another saying, they aren't doing it correctly or they didn't do this or that but until your in a true fight situation, how do you know exactly what you've practice will look picture perfect on the streets when it's will against will. Even mike tyson said everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth.

You're right, it will not look picture perfect on the street. In fact I bet in a reality situation, or even high level, or should I say, high intensity chi sau, you may not even see a bong sau or tan sau, etc.; because those "techniques" are merely snapshots of a split second in time. You don't "go" to a bong sau position. Your opponent's force deforms your structure into a wing arm and it immediately whips back out into an attack.

It will not look like a movie. Stress levels are very high and intricate movements get lost. That's why WC movements rely on gross motor skills. Our focus is not on what the hand is doing...that's a fine motor skill that will get frustrated under stress. Our focus is on the elbows, the shoulders, the lats, etc. These are all gross motor skills that are easier to maintain when under fire.

 

[mook jong man]

You're right, it will not look picture perfect on the street. In fact I bet in a reality situation, or even high level, or should I say, high intensity chi sau, you may not even see a bong sau or tan sau, etc.; because those "techniques" are merely snapshots of a split second in time. You don't "go" to a bong sau position. Your opponent's force deforms your structure into a wing arm and it immediately whips back out into an attack.

It will not look like a movie. Stress levels are very high and intricate movements get lost. That's why WC movements rely on gross motor skills. Our focus is not on what the hand is doing...that's a fine motor skill that will get frustrated under stress. Our focus is on the elbows, the shoulders, the lats, etc. These are all gross motor skills that are easier to maintain when under fire.

This is where our lineages differ in their approach yak sau.
In our lineage we use the bong sau as you describe , having the stimulus of the opponents pressure to turn our arm into bong sau.

But we will also on occasion initiate the bong sau and combine it with a step to off balance the opponent and open up the opponents defence.
Our arm rises up as we start to revolve from tan to bong , this causes the opponents arm to rise up as well and he starts to lose his structure and become unbalanced.
Once the gap has been created the bong sau can then change to a palm strike or hook punch and strike through.