Tradition: Good or Bad?

[Elayna]

Hey everyone,

I was just flipping through the message boards and thought i might say a few things on tradition, since it ties very much into martial arts of all types.

I wonder sometimes if the "old ways" and the "old teachings" are the best. Not to say they arent good, but are they the best you know?.
But yet at the same time I wonder...Are we ready to do anything new? Have we come far enough to start something new? Something based on the "old ways" and the "new ways"
For me it has been such a difficult thing to answer in my mind and heart.
I see the benefits of the old teachings and the ways of the orginal masters. But yet I also see how what they have taught and what they are still teaching, is not neccessarily for the best for anyone, student or observer.
It makes me wonder if there are some things that should stay the same, or if everything needs to change.
I know im probably rambiling here. But I have been thinking about it alot, especially with all the wars going on, (i know, theres always wars)But also with religious issues and what not.
So many people hold on to the past, for the wrong reasons. I believe alot of us fear change.
But I do have to say, in some cases change is not a good thing.
Like my beautiful looks for example. LOL.
But, no seriously.
Any input on this would be really cool. Ive been kinda at a stand still with myself on this topic, because both sides have such valid points.
(im an equal opportunity memeber). LOL.
Anyhooo.....input is great,,...if not, Ill keep my dilemas to myself. LOL
TTYL

 

[matt.m]

I had spent 5 years in the Marine Corps. I have done a lot of house to house fighting and riot control. I have also done some rescue. I am here to tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that hapkido cane, well true traditional hapkido is quite effective.

Even though the weapons of war improve they are still won hand to hand on the battlefield. If that were not true then there would only be missile/avionics battles to decide outcomes would it not?

 

[Bigshadow]

I believe, first, one must understand human conflict has been around since humans have been here. When you discuss old ways versus new ways, you must ask yourself, how much did the old master know about human conflict versus what is known now? IMHO, everything. They knew then what we know now regarding the human capacity and ability for conflict. Therefore, it would seem to me that with regards to unarmed combat, the old way is just as good as the new way (minus the marketing hype), if not better. The fact that the human body has remained virtually the same since recorded history began, I seriously doubt anything new can be discovered about unarmed combat.

The only things that have changed are the weapons and technology.

Traditional should be just fine!

 

[Kreth]

First of all, repeat after me:
Large font + Bold + Color = Bad.

Now, as to the topic... I think a lot depends on the teaching philosophy of the art. Is it taught as a set of static techniques, or as concepts? Concepts are easier to adapt to new situations.

 

[Elayna]

Very good points that both of you make. When it comes down to hand to hand combat definatly traditional ways work the best. I mean even the traditional way of throwing a rock at someones head works the best. LOL.
I guess for me, when I think of tradition I think about more the just the fighting part of it all. I believe that martial arts is not just all about technique, strength, training, and fighting. I believe it is about the heart, mind, emotions, and spirt all coming together with the physical. Through dojo teaching. Through life teaching, and through personal teaching. All of which need to be balanced.
For me...my dilema comes when i see people in the martial arts filed being more concerned about how strong they are physically. Or how fast they are. Or even, how much they can hurt someones body. This to me is tradition based on war and anger. To me this is based on the old masters teaching their students how to fight during a time where fighting was the only way to survive.
But now.....has tradition overplayed itself? Is fighting really the only way to survive? I dont think so. Humans are not animals with no sense of honor or justice. We see things differently then we did 20 years ago, 50 years ago, and 100 years ago.
I have yet to encounter a dojo that does not stress more then anything else that strength and ones ability to inflict pain is the most important part of martial arts.
And for this reason, Is why I have not allied myself with a particular art. And I have had my fair share of dojos and different arts with many years in each.
So i guess my thoughts are really this.....
Is the way teachers are teaching now, based on traditiion...or....something else entirely. Like the need for violence. The need to have a bigger ego. The need to rip something apart.
And for me....that is not a true master of martial arts.
And for me....That is where tradition should be broken....if that is indeed tradition.
(hopefully not).
im just a big mamma bear, wanting peace. Peace through love, not through war. And I KNOW, that martial arts could help the world in so many ways, overcome, our need for violence.
TTYL.....

 

[searcher]

Tradition can be both good AND bad. It all depends on whether or not it hinders the application of your respective art.

 

[mantis]

IMHO martial arts is one of the areas that can tolerate additions and modifications. This is how martial arts started, with "what if's". However some martial arts have evolved extremely mature and they have gone through cycles of refinement periods over hundreds and sometimes thousands of years.

On the other hand martial arts hold a lot of eastern nations' culture. and by bringing those arts to the west i think it's a good idea to preserve the old way (old meaning as it came from the east) to preserve the culture that came with it and to preserve the arts from blending into other arts and lose most of their core teachings

 

[Grenadier]

An interesting question indeed. My answer is going to be biased, since I've stuck exclusively with traditional martial arts, but with a twist:

Traditional martial arts systems have survived because the systems themselves are on solid footing. Many years of practice and research, have made these systems what they are today, and these systems provide an excellent foundation upon which one can base his training.

After all, there are only so many ways someone can throw an effective punch, an effective kick, how to throw people, etc.

Now, this being said, if the menkyo kaiden (or whoever is the chief of the system) sees that there's a more effective way to accomplish something, then that technique really should be explored, as long as it does not disrupt the system itself. Someone who refuses to take in other methods simply for the sake of "keeping the system pure," tends to be rather close-minded. It's not necessarily wrong to question parts of a system, as long as the research has been done, and one can formulate an educated opinion on things. If the system is good, then for the most part, such questions will be answered right away. If the system might be lacking, then the menkyo kaiden shouldn't be afraid to improve those areas.

 

[Kacey]

I think that, as Grenadier says, tradition is important, because it is proof that a system works, that the kinks have been worked out of the system.

There is another purpose to tradition: it creates an atmosphere. I have been in classes that are less traditional, and they are good classes - but for myself, the atmosphere provided by the more traditional, formal instruction (uniforms, formal address, straight lines, etc.) help me to attain a mindset that sets my training time apart from the rest of my day - and I need that. It works for me, and helps me with my training. Not everyone does - and for those people, a less traditional setting may work better.

As far as the general question, of whether tradition is good or bad - I don't think it's either. Tradition just is - and in some settings, and for some people, it is appropriate and/or useful - in other settings, and for other people, it is inappropriate and/or not useful. It is up to the individual whether or not tradition is good or bad for the person.

 

[tradrockrat]

Tradition for the sake of tradition is bad. That is actually just stagnation in disguise. However, tradition based on practical proven technique is great.

My favorite example of this involves training aids such as pads. etc. There is little doubt that modern materials make better, more lasting training aides. Also, why should I kick bamboo trees when I have great kicking shields? Why shouldn't I use wraps for my wrists, etc.? this is an obvious (to me, anyway) example, but you get the idea.

Another thing that gets me about some traditional MA's are their midieval outlook on training regiments and "pain is weakness leaving the body - what do ya mean your tendon snapped?". People love to say the "ancients" knew it all, but really we know a lot more about the development of and stressors to the body now, and modern training practices reflect that.

I know there are many who steadfastly refuse to believe that early MA masters couldn't fix injuries with their "miyagi - like" medical skills, but the facts just don't bear this out. Dibilitating injuries were a lot more common back then. I'll take modern theraputic practices over warm hands anyday.

 

[Bigshadow]

Now, as to the topic... I think a lot depends on the teaching philosophy of the art. Is it taught as a set of static techniques, or as concepts? Concepts are easier to adapt to new situations.

Good point!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Tradition is good when you learn from it! However when it is only about memorizing something in a manner that you could never use it out in the real world then it is probably not so good! (depending on your point of view)

Like Kreth said :
Now, as to the topic... I think a lot depends on the teaching philosophy of the art. Is it taught as a set of static techniques, or as concepts? Concepts are easier to adapt to new situations.

Static technique for no apparent reason is silly. However, if the static technique teaches you the concepts and you can apply those concepts in multiple way's then walla, that is good! Just my two cents. :ultracool

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Fluffy]

Tradition is good, but one must not be afraid to create new traditions.

 

[Andrew Green]

Durring the middle ages one of the things that prevented science from progressing was the belief that Aristotle was "right" on most things, Astronomy not included, and saying otherwise was foolish.

Tradition is neither good or bad. It's the reasons behind the tradition that make it good or bad.

Tradtition can give a sense of identity, unite people and make a stronger bond. Tradition can also divide people, cause fighting, etc.

Tradition can be a basis for progress, or a wall preventing it.

All depends on what and why.

 

[Elayna]

This is tottaly cool having all these different points of view put forth. It definatly helps in understanding why certain traditions have been kept and why others havent.I do believe that no matter who you are you should be willing and open to the idea that the current way of doing things is not always best. Excluding punching someone in the nose of course...LOL....that always works well for a nice bloody nose. LOL.I think that as long as we question ourselves, our superiors and yes even our god, not disrespectfully of course, but out of the desire to grow and become better, that the correct way of doing things will find its way to the forefront. Whether it be physically or mentally.There is a wonderful point behind...It is the reason behind the tradition that makes the tradition good or bad...as stated by Andrew. I tottaly agree with this.I guess I will never know, whether or not someone truly and honestly does something not so go in the martial arts field soley based on tradition, or for personal motives.I just have yet had the pleasure of finding an art that is not tainted by personal gain. That has not been tainted by people who see things only one way and refuse to see it another because "its the way its done".My search is the search for "The Art" the true art. But for each person I suppose its different. And that I can respect wholeheartdly. I also hope that one day, those who stick to "tradition" or do things one way, can respect those of us who do things...the abnormal way. Because I believe then and only then...Will a harmony arise that will astound the Gods...*smile*.Anyhooo....enough of my rambiling.....Thanks for all the posts Peeps.....TTYL

 

[Rich Parsons]

Tradition is good when you learn from it! However when it is only about memorizing something in a manner that you could never use it out in the real world then it is probably not so good! (depending on your point of view)

Like Kreth said :
Now, as to the topic... I think a lot depends on the teaching philosophy of the art. Is it taught as a set of static techniques, or as concepts? Concepts are easier to adapt to new situations.

Static technique for no apparent reason is silly. However, if the static technique teaches you the concepts and you can apply those concepts in multiple way's then walla, that is good! Just my two cents. :ultracool

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

I agree with both Brian and Kreth and when one learns from it then it is good.

I have spent 20+ years studying FMA's and thinking out side of the box and thinking that I am modern and progressive, yet I have some of my friends and those I trust make the comment recently that I am a Traditionalist. I said WTF, no way. Then I though about it, and I can tell you where this technique came from and from which system and where that technique came from the other system. So I can teach the traditions of each system, and still answer questions. So, yes Tradition is good.

Durring the middle ages one of the things that prevented science from progressing was the belief that Aristotle was "right" on most things, Astronomy not included, and saying otherwise was foolish.

Tradition is neither good or bad. It's the reasons behind the tradition that make it good or bad.

Tradtition can give a sense of identity, unite people and make a stronger bond. Tradition can also divide people, cause fighting, etc.

Tradition can be a basis for progress, or a wall preventing it.

All depends on what and why.

I would also like to add something to your comment without ganking this thread, and that is the Church which was in power and many of the "Western" Scholars were educated by the Church. So I do not think it was only the belief that Aristotle was correct, or that Galen was correct in medicine, but that those in power did want to be challenged, and wanted the status quo to remain the same.

So I think there was more to it during the "Dark" ages or middle ages.

 

[MRE]

Hi Elayna,

Very thought provoking thread. I agree that tradition is neither good nor bad. From a martial standpoint, I believe that tradition is important, especially for the inexperienced (which I am - white belt), because it provides a basis for training and protocol that has been proven over time. Tradition is the vehicle that allows information from the original masters to be passed on to us so we can ride on their shoulders until our understanding of the art is sufficient to allow us to walk on our own. I imagine that after we feel we have a sufficient understanding (and from previous threads I am sure that the amount of experience necessary to acquire that understanding will differ between individuals), we will then make a choice to either follow in the footsteps of the masters and keep up tradition, or choose our own path and start our own.

I understand from your posts that you are looking for "the art". A martial art that is not hung up on the martial, and that puts more emphasis on the art. In my opinion, any martial art, whether steeped in tradition or newly started, can be "the art" for you. The thing is, I think that each art can be exactly what you make of it. Regardless of the tradition, the student can put an emphasis on what is important to them. For me, I know that Universal Kempo is the art for me. As I am sure most other classes do, they train us to be fast, strong, and flexible, and preach the balance of mind, body, and spirit in techniques and all other aspects of life. Also, as I am sure with most other classes, I really like all of the other students. However, the most important reason for me is that my 4 year old son loves going to class to play with his friends, to learn to move, and to talk to his instructors. He likes to give me the play by play after class, and is so excited about going home and working on a technique so he can perform it during the next class. The art gives me the opportunity to share something with my son for 2+ hours on 2+ nights a week hopefully for a lifetime.

IMHO, I think each art can be "The Art". It just depends on what you make of it.

 

[terryl965]

In my eye we need tradition to be able to move forward, without the past the future cannot grow and without growth our Arts cannot grow.
Terry

 

[pstarr]

Tradition for its own sake isn't necessarily a good thing...but before we start tossing out some traditions and keeping others (if any), we need to examine them very carefully to determine the WHY of each one. There's often much more than meets the eye.

The idea of students trying to become stronger than each other, of puffing out their chests, and all that sort of thing ISN'T tradition. It's simply a phase which we all go through and hopefully, overcome.

You don't want to mistake those kinds of things for tradition.

 

[JasonASmith]

Tradition for its own sake isn't necessarily a good thing...but before we start tossing out some traditions and keeping others (if any), we need to examine them very carefully to determine the WHY of each one. There's often much more than meets the eye.

The idea of students trying to become stronger than each other, of puffing out their chests, and all that sort of thing ISN'T tradition. It's simply a phase which we all go through and hopefully, overcome.

You don't want to mistake those kinds of things for tradition.

I like this response...
Delving into WHY this or that tradition came about in the circumstances that necessitated it, and seeing if it applies to the here and now is logical...