The scary practicality of BJJ

[Kaygee]

Hello again everyone. As many of you know, I started my journey in BJJ about 3 weeks ago now. I have attended 11 classes so far, some gi, some not, and have learned a bit. The other students have been nothing but helpful. They always seem to give me some sort of pointer every class.

While it has been extremely difficult to do anything to my advantage against the higher ranking students (which is normal and I am not complaining about it), it has been fun, but brings up a question.

I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.

So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?

As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do not know many other moves right now).

Let's say I pull that off......

What do you do when you get said attacker in the triangle. It is all fun and games in the gym when your opponent taps and then you let go, but when you have someone that wants to inflict bodily harm on you, do you squeeze it until they pass out? Do you hold it until you feel they are no longer a threat? Do you hold it at "half strength" and tell them that if they don't chill the hell out they are going to BE chilled out?

I am interested in everyone's opinion. Although I love the sports part of this art, I am taking it also for practical reasons, so I would like to know what others think about this, or, if anyone has ever been placed in a similiar position before and what their reaction was.

Thank you!

 

[arnisador]

I did BJJ for a number of years. I was never very good at it but it helped me considerably nonetheless.

Sport and self-defense are different. My instructor was primarily a JKD guy who added BJJ to improve his ground game. In sport, being on your back and getting your opponent in the guard is great. In self-defense (or MMA) it often just means getting hammered in the face by punch after punch after punch. We were advised that in a street-fight we should strongly prefer to stay standing, failing that to be on top on the ground, even if in the other guy's guard, and if on the bottom to pull the person chest-to-chest with us, controlling arms with arms, and trying to use our head if possible to manage headbutts and bites, then flip him over as soon as possible (and begin punching him in the face or stand up and escape).

Try it with MMA-style finger gloves and half-strength punches with someone--it really disrupts your sport game. The sport training is important because it's how you get your techniques to work--but a different strategy is called for when punching/kicking/biting/scratching/etc. is "legal".

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In a serious self-defense situation there are no "submissions". You're not trying to get the guy to give up, you're trying to make him unable to continue attacking you. That means if you apply a choke, you hold it until the attacker passes out. If you apply a joint lock, break the joint and move on.

What if the situation is less serious, such that inflicting serious damage is not a good option? (Maybe your drunk roomate thinks that you were putting the moves on his girlfriend and you just need to calm him down without getting beat up in the process.) In that case, forget about submissions and rely on positional control. Take him down, get top mount, and crush the wind out of him for a few minutes until he decides he can discuss matters rationally.

Arnisador is correct in that you need to know how to deal with strikes. If you only train for sport grappling, you will be vulnerable to getting punched. I think newcomers to BJJ should definitely learn the combative aspects first before getting caught up in tournament techniques.

The question of whether to go to the ground or not is very situational. There are scenarios where going to the ground would be the best option. There are scenarios where going to the ground would be the worst option. You need to have the tactical sense to understand which is which and the grappling skill to keep the fight where you want it.

 

[Kaygee]

Well, I am taking the boxing and Muay Thai for the striking, so hopefully it doesn't make it's way to the ground, but there's always that chance. We actually run drills in my school during our BJJ/MMA integrated classes (yes, we have them) and one dude on top wears boxing gloves and mounts the guy on the bottom and the guy on the bottom wears a mouth and head piece and tries to get out of being mounted while being pounded on.

That's, more or less, a more "real life" situation though, and I understand that, in reality, the situation wouldn't be me getting thrown to the ground, getting my opponent in guard, and then being able to get him into a triangle without any issues. I am sure it would be very difficult, but I was just wondering what to do if I actually did pull it off.

And Tony, wouldn't you be worried about severely hurting or maybe even killing the guy? Sometimes people will fight until the bitter end and if you keep something like that locked long enough, you could do some major, major damage. I'd hate to be in front of a court and have to explain my actions, ya know.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Just as an aside, when being submitted on the street, tap. Some trained fighters might let you go. Then proceed to beat him.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And Tony, wouldn't you be worried about severely hurting or maybe even killing the guy? Sometimes people will fight until the bitter end and if you keep something like that locked long enough, you could do some major, major damage. I'd hate to be in front of a court and have to explain my actions, ya know.

Firstly, this is one reason I greatly prefer "blood" chokes that attack the veins & arteries over "air" chokes that attack the windpipe. Once your opponent passes out you release them, and a few seconds later they wake up none the worse for wear. (Rener and Ryron Gracie posted a video on YouTube a while back explaining how to recognize that your opponent has passed out and safety precautions to ensure that you don't hold the choke too long.) Chokes against the windpipe carry much more danger of inflicting permanent damage and so I wouldn't use one of those in a street fight unless I felt my life was in danger and it was my only option.

As far as joint locks go, if I'm using them in a real fight then I am intending to injure my opponent. However I am not engaging in challenge matches or "monkey dance" posturing to prove my dominance. Given any opportunity to avoid violence I will walk away or even run if I can. If I ever get to the point where I'm applying an arm lock in the street it will be because someone is seriously trying to hurt me and I couldn't get away from them or convince them to settle things peacefully. In that situation, giving my attacker the opportunity to keep attacking me would be a mistake.

 

[arnisador]

Police have had a lot of problems with chokes resulting in deaths--usually on the inebriated or high--so it is a serious matter by any standards. Only you can decide what's called for.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Police have had a lot of problems with chokes resulting in deaths--usually on the inebriated or high--so it is a serious matter by any standards. Only you can decide what's called for.

I suspect most of those deaths can be attributed to windpipe chokes or to the officer holding on to a choke way too long. Most police officers do not have the level of training in applying chokes that an experienced BJJ practitioner should have.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

ok, 2 things
1: IMO as a general rule of thumb, don't go to the ground. If they have a buddy, then hell be able to attack you while you're all tangled up with guy 1. Even if there's only one attacker, there are too many variables, and its too dangerous..he could get 'lucky' and hurt you, or you could hurt him worse than you intended because he didn't move how you expected. Of course, that's possible in stand-up to, but less likely that it will be as serious. There are situations where going to the ground is ok, but you need a lot of experience to know when that situation arises, so for now it's better just to be safe and avoid the ground/grappling in general.
2. You practiced Tang Soo Do, right? Since you won first place in fighting in a recent tournament, I'm going to assume you're capable. So, if you were attacked by multiple people, with only TSD knowledge, what would you do? Hit them once and hope they run away? Or hit them with the intent to injure them in a way they can't go after you anymore? Obviously it depends on how serious they are for hurting you, but whatever your answer is, it can also be applied to BJJ.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

We actually run drills in my school during our BJJ/MMA integrated classes (yes, we have them)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MMA "mixed martial arts"? Wouldn't you naturally integrate martial arts into the mixed (or integrated) martial arts? During the non-integrated classes, do you still call it MMA, or just Muay Thai?

 

[Kaygee]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MMA "mixed martial arts"? Wouldn't you naturally integrate martial arts into the mixed (or integrated) martial arts? During the non-integrated classes, do you still call it MMA, or just Muay Thai?

Well, yes.....but we have "MMA Classes" and then BJJ Classes". So they are kind of different.

In our "MMA classes", we work on footwork, Western boxing, and Muay Thai boxing. We also do a lot of cage work (working against the cage wall, escapes, etc.)
Then we have "BJJ Classes" which are just strictly BJJ. We have gi and no gi nights.
And every thursday, we have a "MMA/BJJ integration class" where we implement the practicality of both into one class.

Not sure if that I answered your question, but there it is...

 

[punisher73]

Police have had a lot of problems with chokes resulting in deaths--usually on the inebriated or high--so it is a serious matter by any standards. Only you can decide what's called for.

Yep, one big problem with grappling is that any submission or choke is a felony in many states. If I put someone in an armbar in Michigan, it is Assault with Intent to do Great Bodily Harm ("breaking" the arm). If I put someone in a choke, it is now Assault with Intent to Murder. Remember, that legally, "assault" is the THREAT of the violence and what the victim believes it to be.

So, on the flip side, if you attempt to choke someone even if YOUR intent is to just get them to stop and pass out. They are now legally justified to kill you.

Just some things to be aware of, and to consult a local attorney on how your Prosecutor/District Attorney views these types of cases and what state laws are.

 

[Buka]

Hello again everyone. As many of you know, I started my journey in BJJ about 3 weeks ago now. I have attended 11 classes so far, some gi, some not, and have learned a bit. The other students have been nothing but helpful. They always seem to give me some sort of pointer every class.

While it has been extremely difficult to do anything to my advantage against the higher ranking students (which is normal and I am not complaining about it), it has been fun, but brings up a question.

I know a lot of the students only use this for sport and competitive reasons, in fact, most of them do not even attend the MMA class that is offered at my gym, they only come in for the BJJ.

So let us put aside the competition and sport part of BJJ for a second, shall we?

As stated, I am horrible when rolling with the higher ranking students, but what would be the reprecussions of someone rushing and tackling me to the ground in a real life situation? If I do not bump my head, of course, my first move is going to be to put him in my guard. Then, probably something like a triangle (because I do not know many other moves right now).

Let's say I pull that off......

What do you do when you get said attacker in the triangle. It is all fun and games in the gym when your opponent taps and then you let go, but when you have someone that wants to inflict bodily harm on you, do you squeeze it until they pass out? Do you hold it until you feel they are no longer a threat? Do you hold it at "half strength" and tell them that if they don't chill the hell out they are going to BE chilled out?

I am interested in everyone's opinion. Although I love the sports part of this art, I am taking it also for practical reasons, so I would like to know what others think about this, or, if anyone has ever been placed in a similiar position before and what their reaction was.

Thank you!

Right now you're 11 pages into a long book. Enjoy the read and have a ball.

 

[Tez3]

Well, yes.....but we have "MMA Classes" and then BJJ Classes". So they are kind of different.

In our "MMA classes", we work on footwork, Western boxing, and Muay Thai boxing. We also do a lot of cage work (working against the cage wall, escapes, etc.)
Then we have "BJJ Classes" which are just strictly BJJ. We have gi and no gi nights.
And every thursday, we have a "MMA/BJJ integration class" where we implement the practicality of both into one class.

Not sure if that I answered your question, but there it is...

Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.
I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.

 

[Kaygee]

Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.
I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.

Yeah, I guess calling it a "striking class" would be more of a suitable description of the class. I do have nearly 3 years of Tang Soo Do under my belt and I do execute it when I am sparring, but outside of the boxing, muay thai and BJJ, there hasn't been much more taught to me. In reality though, my reality anyway, that's all I really need. I just want the four ranges covered so I can be effective at them all.

 

[punisher73]

Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.
I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.

Not to split hairs, but there are many schools that define THEIR MMA as boxing/Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ and don't go outside of those arts. I understand your position that there can be many other arts that can be added to the toolbox. Maybe it's a difference in approach between the US and the UK. Many US schools are heavily influenced by the UFC, in which boxing, wrestling, MT and BJJ are the main things showcased.

 

[Tez3]

Not to split hairs, but there are many schools that define THEIR MMA as boxing/Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ and don't go outside of those arts. I understand your position that there can be many other arts that can be added to the toolbox. Maybe it's a difference in approach between the US and the UK. Many US schools are heavily influenced by the UFC, in which boxing, wrestling, MT and BJJ are the main things showcased.

Perhaps they should say they are 'UFC schools' rather than MMA gyms lol! I don't think it's the UK approach so much as the approach outside the USA, I know a lot of European fighters and their MMA is the same as ours, literally the mixture of arts rather than just 3 or 4. It's very limiting to just have boxing/MT and BJJ, I suppose that's why we have these discussions on here about TKD and karate in MMA when obviously in the States you don't see it much whereas outside it's fairly obvious.

 

[arnisador]

ok, 2 things
1: IMO as a general rule of thumb, don't go to the ground. If they have a buddy, then hell be able to attack you while you're all tangled up with guy 1. Even if there's only one attacker, there are too many variables, and its too dangerous

Also, you'd be surprised how often someone has a knife on them but didn't bring it out initially, reasoning that if they get caught the penalty will be less then. If pressed they'll pull it...and a knife on the ground is bad news.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Your MMA class is Boxing, footwork and Muay Thai not MMA. It's what we call a 'stand up' class. MMA is more than just boxing, MT and BJJ though, for it to be MMA it also needs elements of other martial arts, karate, Judo, Aikido etc etc. The point of having MMA is to have as much ammunition as you can by knowing as much as you can and putting it together.
I liked Buka's analogy of your being 11 pages into a very long book, he's right and you should enjoy it, if you are going to stick to MMA though do widen your skillls base into proper MMA by learning techniques outside just boxing, MT and BJJ.

What she said XDD

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Also, you'd be surprised how often someone has a knife on them but didn't bring it out initially, reasoning that if they get caught the penalty will be less then. If pressed they'll pull it...and a knife on the ground is bad news.

agreed, but completely forgot about it. Wow, I'm actually agreeing with basically everyone on a thread! yay!