The reality of HKD Tecjniques

[American HKD]

Greetings,

This is my general question.

Hapkido Techniques mostly taught from a wrist grap even Black Belt techniques are taught that way including multiple attachers.
(Not counting here clothes grabs, bear hugs, head locks for now etc.)

How do you guys make these reality based or street wise applications?

Senario:

Someone grabs your wrist or lapel and tries to punch your face right away etc.

1. Can you just do the basic techniques without being hit end of story?

2. Must you block and or strike then do a counter technique?

3. In a higher level will a well done technique alone be and end all regardless of what else is being done to you because of your ability to control an attacker with that move?

4. How much reality based senarios do you teach in the Dojang.

What do you think is the reality of the HKD system in street on a scale of 1-10 as classically taught by most of us?

 

[iron_ox]

How do you guys make these reality based or street wise applications?

Senario:

Someone grabs your wrist or lapel and tries to punch your face right away etc.

1. Can you just do the basic techniques without being hit end of story?

2. Must you block and or strike then do a counter technique?

3. In a higher level will a well done technique alone be and end all regardless of what else is being done to you because of your ability to control an attacker with that move?

4. How much reality based senarios do you teach in the Dojang.

What do you think is the reality of the HKD system in street on a scale of 1-10 as classically taught by most of us?

GREAT Thread starter Stuart,

1. Yes, I believe that with enough practice, simple techniqe can suffice, if your reaction time is fast enough.

2. From a grab, if the opponent strikes, the strike becomes the most urgent thing to defend against - the grab then seems "stable" - I generally block away from the grab, opening up the opponent for an off balance technique to drop them to the ground (my personal preferrence).

3. In my experience, there may always be a need to work in through multiple techniques - some drunks just don't feel things well, and may need bits tweaked from several techniques to subdue them. (Again, personal experience).

4. I think Hapkido is a reality based art, the techniques may be older, but the applications are still very relevant. I teach applications from three sources, my own experience, the applications I have been taught by my insrtuctors over the years, and those based on the experience of students - whose wide range of backgrounds bring lots of new ideas.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Senario:

Someone grabs your wrist or lapel and tries to punch your face right away etc.

1. Can you just do the basic techniques without being hit end of story?

From this scenario, I would try to do two things. First would be to take the attacker's balance, so even if they did strike it would be a weak strike due to not having balance. Second would be to block the attacker's striking limb with the attacker's grabbing limb. (Specific technique I am thinking of is inside spin with a chicken wing or three finger takedown.)

2. Must you block and or strike then do a counter technique?

Not for the above technique.

3. In a higher level will a well done technique alone be and end all regardless of what else is being done to you because of your ability to control an attacker with that move?

Well, if the first technique doesn't work you have to be ready to do something else.

Sometimes martial artists get in trouble in a real situation because they are not mentally ready for a technique to fail. They will throw their best stuff at a guy and it doesn't work. (Attacker on meth won't feel pain). That is why we need to build the mindset that if we are attacked, we won't stop fighting until we win. If your best fails, you do something else. But you don't stop fighting (unless you can run away).

4. How much reality based senarios do you teach in the Dojang.

Not enough.

What do you think is the reality of the HKD system in street on a scale of 1-10 as classically taught by most of us?

If 1 is low and 10 is high, I'd say 6 or 7.

 

[Paul B]

If you're talking about the differences between static and dynamic,I'm with you.

Moving off the center line is step number one...safety first,technique second.Your movement off-line is usually the "balance taker" in the equation,if not,you're in trouble,and have more problems to deal with.

If we're talking absolutes here,I don't think you could do a static technique in a dynamic situation,without getting "stuck",but who knows?

Most "grabs" are trained statically to begin with,but I don't think it should be taken as a "literal" technique.

In regards to the training,I don't think any Hapkidoin should take a technique at face value. Whether it be "classically" taught or not.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Its hard for me to take your question seriously, not because its not a good question, but because I don't draw a line between "this is reality" and "thats for training". Its like my sword training. The sword is an item or tool with one purpose--- to be used as a weapon. Everything else proceeds from that. So when we train in sword we are learning to use a tool to perform a task, clear and simple. If I can find a "higher sense of self" from my training, well, swell.

So when we train in Hapkido the idea is that we are always moving closer and closer towards the place that we are more efficient and effective should we need to be. Has nothing to do with anything more that becoming increasing accurate, and detailed with our execution. If I can find a "higher sense of self" dumping people on their butts, well, swell.

Now, let me close by saying that learning to injure, maim or even kill another person is a lot of power for one person to handle. The measure of that persons' character is how they handle that power. Not everyone is up to that so where I teach I put a lot of emphasis on character-development so as to prep students for handling the ability to dislocate a shoulder or blind another human being. You would be amazed at how many people really "don't want to hurt" other people. And the ones who come in all primed to hurt someone else aren't the sorts of people I want to teach anyhow.

I guess what I am getting around to saying (the long way) is that for what I do your question is a kind of non-sequiter. Almost like calling something "combat hapkido" or "punch-style boxing". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Let me re-phrase the question.

Does Hapkido teach us to use the techniques in the realist sense possible?

I don't believe it does and I'm trying to see what others think about that and doing things more realistically and how to create better senerios for training in the dojang that will improve our chances in the street.

Hapkido multiple attack defence with two people grapping each wrist is pretty lame and unrealistic. Maybe a bear hug from behind and a guy punching from the front is a better one and so on what ever you can come up with.

 

[Paul B]

I see where you're at,now.

We train like that,and have since before I started. Especially about the multiples.

The grab in itself,to me, is no danger at all,it's what follows that you need to deal with,no? If somebody grabs you and stands there,where is the harm? No energy being offered to use,so I am going to try and break his wrist for what again?

There has to be energy and "intent",if not...we're holding hands,and I don't want to hold hands,I want to practice Hapkido.

In regards to follow up attacks,weelll that's why we train to move off the line at contact,or even before if we can "lead" the attacker where we want him,then proceed to technique, It's much easier using the techniques in this manner. No "head butting" of force.:whip:

Some good attack combos from a grab to share....

1. Grab with punch
2. Grab with kick/knee
3. Grab and strike
4. Grab and choke
5. Grab with two hands and kick/knee/choke/throw attempt.

These are the most common we train from. What do ya think?

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I said it before (and many others) that training with compliant partners is not the best way to train for a real street fight.

But sparring against a noncomplaint partner is difficult, because there is a high likelyhood of injury. To reduce the injury potential, you need to add rules. If you add rules, then it is not hapkido..the art. But hapkido..the sport sparring.

They tried Hapkdio sparring at Yong-In university when my master was in school, and she said they had to stop because too many people were getting serious injuries. They allowed striking, throws, sweeps, and low spinning kicks.

I believe if you want to make it more realistic, you need to add stress. Read this article to understand how the brain works when stressed. http://www.defendu.com/sst.htm

So how do you add stress, against a noncompliant partner, with no rules, and keep it safe? (Assuming you want to allow joint-locks/breaks). That's the $64,000 question.

Jeremy

 

[Paul B]

There are "rules" when practicing,no? Do you really poke someone's eye out or strike their throat? I hope not,that could get icky....

I think once you have a good grasp of the basics you should be able to choose the level of harm you inflict on your attacker. Just because in class you don't get to use the mean stuff,doesn't mean it is not available to you "on the street".

So, in short,how do you want to train? Are the throws and locks used mainly as a means of control? Do you want to add kicks in your "freestyle" practice?

I suggest using the "line" method of practice. Everyone is in a line with you out on the mat. They come with a selected attack with intent,and it's up to you how you respond. This is a great way to introduce the "freestyle" and stress experience to your training. After that comes the real freestyle,when it really gets fun!

 

[Disco]

I said it before (and many others) that training with compliant partners is not the best way to train for a real street fight.

It's the "ONLY" way one can train without inflicting serious injury to another. The thing that seperates the two is the mindset of the individual. If you have never experienced a real wrist joint lock into a throw, you are in for a big surprise. It ain't gonna go like it does in the dojang. On the surface, that statement looks to be a contradiction of sorts, but it's not really. All the controlled falling by your compliant partner dosen't happen on an untrained attacker. That's what most of these techniques were designed to do, stop/hurt someone. But since you are not dealing with a compliant partner, the parameters change. Strikes now become most important to soften up a less than willing antagonist. There's no way that you could expect to impart that kind of injury in the dojang.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

Please let me dove-tail on your thought because I am not sure everyone is talking about the same thing.

When I teach, the message is clear that what we are doing is breaking things. Let me use the simple Turning Leaf (aka J. Kote Gashi) technique.

Take this technique and use it in Aikido and you get a fine technique with an impressive air-roll by ones' partner. The defender is not actually "throwing" the partner as much as the partner throws himself to stay a quarter-second and a quarter-inch ahead of the technique. On the street the same technique is a wrist fracture-- plain and simple. If you are not up to breaking a persons' wrist, then don't use this technique because thats where its intended to go.

How about the well-known Arm-bar? In training its a simple compliance technique with a significant amount of pressure on the elbow. Find yourself in an altercation and it is a broken elbow. Don't want to break the guys' elbow? Don't use this technique.

I don't teach ballet, or bowling or martial sport. I don't pretend what I teach is intended to help me to become one with my opponent. I didn't ask this person to attack me and the best I can do is let him know he has made a bad decision. What part of this is not clear?

As far as I can see, people are having trouble because they want to have it both ways. People want a effective, no-fail fighting system, but they don't want to have anyone get hurt so there won't be any liability to deal with.
"scuse me, but there is a reason these arts are identified as "martial". Get a clue.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I said it before (and many others) that training with compliant partners is not the best way to train for a real street fight.

It's the "ONLY" way one can train without inflicting serious injury to another. The thing that seperates the two is the mindset of the individual. If you have never experienced a real wrist joint lock into a throw, you are in for a big surprise. It ain't gonna go like it does in the dojang. On the surface, that statement looks to be a contradiction of sorts, but it's not really. All the controlled falling by your compliant partner dosen't happen on an untrained attacker. That's what most of these techniques were designed to do, stop/hurt someone. But since you are not dealing with a compliant partner, the parameters change. Strikes now become most important to soften up a less than willing antagonist. There's no way that you could expect to impart that kind of injury in the dojang.

I'm not disagreeing here. I too think you can't train on an noncompliant partner in hapkido without turning it into a sport.

Sure, you can make things a bit more stressful by having students react to a unknown attack like a grab or strike. But the defender KNOWS it is coming. So they won't learn how to deal with the fight or flight response and the reduction in gross motor skills that come with that.

I think you can simulate a high stress street fight environment in safe ways. Think about professional military training. They do all sorts of things to cause the trainees stress.

I'm thinking, have periodic drills in class where the students have to defend against an attack while the other students are watching. Maybe even have people yell at the student to add more stress. I know that would freak me out.

 

[Disco]

I think you can simulate a high stress street fight environment in safe ways. Think about professional military training. They do all sorts of things to cause the trainees stress.

First, I'll address the military aspect. The only real stress one can undergo is live fire exercises. Anything short of death or physical harm does not induce the level of adrenaline dump or anxiety that is associated with being in a hostile environment. Police go thru similar training. Gun range - Hogans Alley, Combat shooting competitions or just yearly qualifying. Put that same cop in a real shooting solution and it's off the charts. Anyone that's been in combat will testify to the vast difference. A street fight falls into the same criteria, but unlike the soldier or the cop, most people are not in a constant state of ready and they are thrust into the situation cold as compared to the other's. I confess that I have no idea of how to simulate a high stress street fight environment safely. The true elements to induce real "Oh Crap" stress are just not there. But I will conceed this......., any additional training over and above normal dojang protocal can't hurt.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

This thread is good but I'm looking for in the dojang ideas or drills to get as close as possible to a street senario.

One guys asks the defender for change or bumps him in the subway which blows up into sometihing like a push, grab, punch etc.

Defender ignors some street punk the aggresors buddy jumps in and now it's 2 on one harrasing the denfender and thing get started.

How can the defender control this situation with footwork, timing, distance, using one opponent as a shield for control etc.

I sometimes take my guys to the park or we do rolls or techniques outside or on the Dojang parking lot. I let them feel what the asphalt feels like when you fall etc.

Do a jumping type breakfall in the parking lot and you'll soon realize that is "if you're not seriously hurt just from contacting the ground". The way we fall is strictly for the Dojang not at all a real combat fall or roll.

Most of you will probably re-think the way you teach break falls and rolls after that. Go see how many high flying Hapkido/gymnastic types would survive thier demos on concrete, not any in IMO.

Anybody know how to do real street falls or rolling techniques so you wont get hurt???

Who does that sort of training.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

"......Police go thru similar training. Gun range - Hogans Alley, Combat shooting competitions or just yearly qualifying. Put that same cop in a real shooting solution and it's off the charts. Anyone that's been in combat will testify to the vast difference. A street fight falls into the same criteria, but unlike the soldier or the cop, most people are not in a constant state of ready and they are thrust into the situation cold as compared to the other's....."

I think this distinction is important enough to comment on it a little futher. Essentially what we are talking about is the difference between a martial art and a military art. Unless a person lives in an environment or retains a job that requires this sort of hyper-vigilance, most people I know don't want the sort of "live fire" exercizes that are available to LEO-s and Armed Forces members. Nor do they actually have sufficient cause to participate in this sort of intense and stressful training. Most students who turn-up for my classes at the college simply want to be able to come out of a challenge situation without a lot of injury. They don't want to hurt people and they don't want to be hurt. This is why I stress the martial aspect of what I do with its heavy emphasis on good judgement and character development along with the nasty techniques.

Now, many years ago, when I was first starting my Hapkido training I used to go to a school down in Chicago, on Western. There were a lot of LEO-s and city folk and their attitude was plainly different. There, folks were nowhere near as reluctant to use what they were learning and THATS the way they trained. Call it "military" with a small "m". Having said this I would bet that most folks could get their military needs met by simply attending a school whose philosophy was a bit more no-nonsense. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

I said it before (and many others) that training with compliant partners is not the best way to train for a real street fight.

But sparring against a noncomplaint partner is difficult, because there is a high likelyhood of injury. To reduce the injury potential, you need to add rules. If you add rules, then it is not hapkido..the art. But hapkido..the sport sparring.

They tried Hapkdio sparring at Yong-In university when my master was in school, and she said they had to stop because too many people were getting serious injuries. They allowed striking, throws, sweeps, and low spinning kicks.

I believe if you want to make it more realistic, you need to add stress. Read this article to understand how the brain works when stressed. http://www.defendu.com/sst.htm

So how do you add stress, against a noncompliant partner, with no rules, and keep it safe? (Assuming you want to allow joint-locks/breaks). That's the $64,000 question.

Jeremy

I must STRONGLY disagree here, adrenal stress training is a failure across the board. This has been the subject of research of mine going on 9 years as the basis for my Master's thesis. Adrenal stress training is a hyped up project started to add reality training to police cadet courses - the result was (and has been) a 1000% increase in reports of police brutality and misuse of appropriate force.

As an adherant to Hapkido, the adrenal response must be trained to be harnessed, and that power used, not just "let loose" - living in the most murderous city in the country, I know more than most about safety and the reality of crime - the fact is that adrenal stress training assumes there are maurading groups of murderous people on the streets ready to attack you so you must be "keyed" up for this attack at all times. Wrong assumption. Our society is VERY safe, and our training should reflect the actual amount of need that is out there.

A single (and there are many) problem with adreal stress training is what happens to the body after a conflict. If the body is simply allowed to run amok, the adrenal response is to sapp energy from every resource - thus in very short order, you become totally exhausted - and then are truely venerable.

I have been to adrenal based workshops for cops, civilians and women's self defense workshops (the ones with big padded attacker) - I can tell you all unequivically that they are garbage. There is no skill in the training, the thought is just let the body "overwhelm" the attack and subdue it - it is all hype. Watch any current episode of COPS and see how keyed up there are even in a simple situation - this is the result of adrenal stress training. I have watched women strike and kick the padded attacker as he screams obscenities, only to get so exhausted that the attacker has to "lighten up" so as to not overwhelm them.

Sorry, this is the wrong tree to bark up. You should work to harness the adrenal rush, visualization is a good starting point - knowing the rush is coming and supressing it so that the energy is stored and the attack is subdued with calm not in a berzerk fashion.

 

[iron_ox]

Greetings,

This thread is good but I'm looking for in the dojang ideas or drills to get as close as possible to a street senario.

One guys asks the defender for change or bumps him in the subway which blows up into sometihing like a push, grab, punch etc.

Defender ignors some street punk the aggresors buddy jumps in and now it's 2 on one harrasing the denfender and thing get started.

How can the defender control this situation with footwork, timing, distance, using one opponent as a shield for control etc.

I sometimes take my guys to the park or we do rolls or techniques outside or on the Dojang parking lot. I let them feel what the asphalt feels like when you fall etc.

Do a jumping type breakfall in the parking lot and you'll soon realize that is "if you're not seriously hurt just from contacting the ground". The way we fall is strictly for the Dojang not at all a real combat fall or roll.

Most of you will probably re-think the way you teach break falls and rolls after that. Go see how many high flying Hapkido/gymnastic types would survive thier demos on concrete, not any in IMO.

Anybody know how to do real street falls or rolling techniques so you wont get hurt???

Who does that sort of training.

Hello Stuart,

Excellent point. When I first started training, the drill at least three times a week was to do front rolls around the building we trained in, outside on the concrete (about a quarter mile). Most of us started from a kneeing position for the first few months - it just hurt too much, eventually, you learn that the body must be really curved and "solid" and that the initial "impact" (not really the right word) must be borne by the back - but with equal pressure across the whole motion. I was at a disadvantage, I never saw a mat of any kind for about 3 years, so all of our breakfalls were done straight to the basketball style hardwood floor. Yes, it hurt, for a long time. We never got into the acrobatic stuff, just what was required to absorb a real attack taken to the ground.

As dumb as this sounds, a good way to know if people can take a real breakfall is to listen on a mat - when a roll is VERY silent, there are no single heavy points of contact - they are probably ready.

Falling on concrete is a mental thing, just like breaking concrete, visualize a mat and away you go - slowly at first...

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

An idea I do not recommend, for a dan test once in the early 80's I was pushed backwards out of a second story window onto a grass embankment to test my breakfalling skills - after about 10 minutes I climbed back up the two long flights of stairs to get back to the school - only to get pushed down those as a final test. I don't recommend this - the lawsuits alone would bury you...

 

[American HKD]

Hello all,

An idea I do not recommend, for a dan test once in the early 80's I was pushed backwards out of a second story window onto a grass embankment to test my breakfalling skills - after about 10 minutes I climbed back up the two long flights of stairs to get back to the school - only to get pushed down those as a final test. I don't recommend this - the lawsuits alone would bury you...

Kevin,

I'm sitting here in my office with a Hapkido green belt and were laughing out asses off at that post!

Good thing you didn't break your neck or die.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

Very Funny story now, not at the time...ouch.