The purpose of Certification

[terryl965]

I would love to hear everybody rerasoning for certification and what do you feel would be the best way to go. What I personaly mean is this is the KKW the all and mighty since anyone with money can obtain one? Since only .01% of folks compete on the International Level is it worth the little cost that comes from it? Does a house belt from a repetable Instructor hold no merit anymore?

I ask these question for there have been alot of boat jumping the last couple of year and people scambleing to get in with certain orgs and leaving others, does this really matter to the mases out there and if so why?

I'm looking for some great input from all those we have here now and Please remember this is not about what is the Best but why we choose what we have and why some feel this is best.

Thank you all

 

[Makalakumu]

Does a house belt from a repetable Instructor hold no merit anymore?

Does a certificate guarentee that you have a certain level of skill?

My guess is that in most cases, in regards to martial arts, it does not. Which is why I would say that your level of skill is the only thing that really matters in the end.

Thus the real purpose of the certificate is to weed out competition.

 

[Kacey]

I'm probably going to come at this a little different than most people because I have never held certification with the Kukkiwon - I started in the ITF, and all of my certifications except the most recent one (IV Dan) have come from the ITF as well as from my organization and instructor. There are students in my organization (which is currently not affiliated with the ITF) who still obtain ITF certification so that they can compete in international competition - and no one else pays the money or really cares. I have 2 certificates for each of my BB tests for I Dan through III Dan - one stamped by the ITF (including Gen. Choi's signature - stamped, not signed) and one signed by the testing instructor and my sahbum. It is the one signed by my sahbum that means the most to me - because he is my sahbum, the one who trained me, who had the faith in my skills to tell me to test, the one whose opinion is most meaningful to me. The next most important is the testing instructor - these are my seniors, people whose opinion I trust, who have been where I am now. The certificate from the ITF is pretty, and it's nice to have - but as far as Gen. Choi ever knowing about my test personally, I seriously doubt it. The ITF certificate was stamped by someone who took the words of my sahbum and testing instructor that my skills are appropriate to the rank I was testing for - I have only tested before a board containing people from the ITF outside my association once, and they were there to test my sahbum to VI Dan (requries 3 or more VIII Dan) - I was being testing by my sahbum's sahbum.

My opinion is, if you want it - either because you want to compete at those levels or because it has some value to you - then get it. If not, why bother?

 

[exile]

I would love to hear everybody rerasoning for certification and what do you feel would be the best way to go. What I personaly mean is this is the KKW the all and mighty since anyone with money can obtain one? Since only .01% of folks compete on the International Level is it worth the little cost that comes from it? Does a house belt from a repetable Instructor hold no merit anymore?

I ask these question for there have been alot of boat jumping the last couple of year and people scambleing to get in with certain orgs and leaving others, does this really matter to the mases out there and if so why?

I'm looking for some great input from all those we have here now and Please remember this is not about what is the Best but why we choose what we have and why some feel this is best.

Thank you all

Good question, Terry. I've been wondering this myself a bit. My own instructor is KKW fifth certified, but I have to say, I'm much more impressed by the fact by the fact that he's been training for 20 years +, that he presents a style of TKD which is (from what I've been able to learn) a classic Song Moo Kwan style, that he's won a number of gold and silver medals in poomsae at major state tournaments (for reasons that are obvious, when you see him performing Taebek or Ship Jin), that he was a senior instructor in the Columbus Ernie Reyes system for many years, and that his own instructors and examiners are well known and highly respected TKD practitioners of great distinction. I see the KKW as existing for reasons which are uniquely tied up with Korea's history and the role of TKD as the `official face' of Korean MA, an important tool in forming the postwar identity of Korea after generations of unspeakably brutal Japanese occupation—excellent reasons, but not necessarily reasons that arise on a purely MA basis.

While the two orgs are separate, as people have emphasized in earlier threads, a lot of what the KKW does is tied up with the WTF's activities as the organizers and regulators of an international tournament system with the Olympics as the jewel in its crown. There's a lot of money involved and huge prestige. I don't know of any other MA on the planet that has the equivalent of the KKW, nor is there another MA apart from judo (unless you count boxing, but those cases are maybe a bit different) which has an Olympic-level contest and a supporting tournament organization for that structure. The two are tied together, and my impression—which of course could be wildly mistaken—is that the KKW's technical decisions and the WTF's competition rules and standards are closely linked.

But if you're interested in TKD in terms of self-defense, CQ fighting and the full range of kwan-era techs, then I think the KKW isn't saying much to you. E.g., I haven't checked lately, but I recall seeing some `official' bunkai explanations on the web site at one point which were exactly the kind of thing that that Rick Clark, Iain Abernethy and Lawrence Wilder and Chris Kane point out as being really impractical and badly thought out in their critiques of standard apps for karate kata movements. And you can get that kind of SD-oriented training, with realistic hyung analysis, from someone who hasn't elected to get KKW certification.

The real questions are, (1) does KKW certification protect you, the consumer, from the McDojang effect? My impression is that it doesn't—that there are plenty of McDojs out there run by people in good standing in KKW; if I'm way off base here, Terry, you'll tell me, eh? :wink1:; and (2) does not having KKW certification mean a dojang automatically isn't a good bet for you? Again, my sense is no. I think the rule of thumb is, you go by what the kwan teaches: if it seems to be good—a broad curriculum that covers the particular ground you want—if the instruction seems careful and the dojang atmosphere energetic and respectful on all sides, then you probably have what you need—and schools which offer that kind of package aren't necessarily going to be KKW affiliated...

 

[terryl965]

Exile the last point you made are correct and I would like time to put together a true response to them, I'm between classes and just do not have the time.
Thanks
Terry

 

[TKDmel]

Many, many years ago I started TKD with the ATA. I had never practiced MA before so wasn't aware there were other TKD organizations. I was happy with classes, but found the competition wasn't my cup of tea, as I like the really hard continuous physical contact. I made it up to blue belt when I was discharged from the military and left TKD to go back to NY. There I found a new master and new forms, but most everything else was the same. It wasn't until a few months had passed that my new master told us about the then USTU, WTF, and that we were to be certified as dans through the kukkiwon. He explained what the KKW was and that it was no better, no worse than any other organization, just the one he was involved with since growing up in Korea. I love to compete, and have been to several national championships which would not have happened if I had not been certified through the KKW. I like knowing that some org. out there, is striving to standardize the forms so that people around the world will be on the same page so to speak. Do I think that other reputable instructors who run honest dojangs but are not affiliated with the KKW are less important? NO. Do I think that they give quality instuction? YES. I think that no matter your affiliation, the art is what you and your instructor put into it.

 

[exile]

Exile the last point you made are correct and I would like time to put together a true response to them, I'm between classes and just do not have the time.
Thanks
Terry

Hi Terry, sure, it's your thread really—as always, I'm very interested in your take on this issue (as with any issue in the TKD world)—whenever you get a chance...

Do I think that other reputable instructors who run honest dojangs but are not affiliated with the KKW are less important? NO. Do I think that they give quality instuction? YES. I think that no matter your affiliation, the art is what you and your instructor put into it.

Yes—I think we're on the same page here!

 

[ArmorOfGod]

My opinion is, if you want it - either because you want to compete at those levels or because it has some value to you - then get it. If not, why bother?

Excellent post, Kacey. I agree completely.
I may be out of place here, since I am a karate teacher and not a tkd, but what Kacey put there is the way I view things. None of the (karate) schools in my area (including me) have anything but house belts, and our world turns fine over here.
But, since I am not in the tkd world, I realize that things can very well be different for you.

AoG

 

[Ninjamom]

I'm going to throw a different spin on things, and disagree with some of what's been said already.

Ultimately, I agree that the main benefit and importance of studying a martial art isn't tied to rank or organization. However, I think that one of the main benefits of certification is a certain level of standardization (in level of training, experience, skill set) at each rank, and therefore, the 'portability' of your training.

For example, our school is located just outside a major Naval facility. It is a fact of life in the military communities (and in most places in the US these days, and I assume many places around the world for that matter) that people move. For students in my area, the KKW certification not only guarantees they can compete as Dan holders, but it also means that when/if they move to a new location, their rank will be recognized. Skill levels and forms should also remain at the same level, from school to school. This means that Dan holders in one school, when they move, can step into positions of helping others to teach/train.

 

[matt.m]

When I test for 1st dan TKD and hopefully pass in a few years I will want a KKW cert. I will not ever compete in regional sparring or above. I don't compete in sparring now. The thing is I just want it, just to have. I have a dan cert. from the USJA so having one from the KKW is just a novelty for me.

I will say this with all sincerity though, the MSK cert. is the only one that I will have true value in. That is the one that was signed off on by GM Hildebrand and company. Those are the folks that trained me, the ones who have tested me, the ones that actually care and put there time into making sure I was doing things correctly etc.

I have seen folks with the KKW cert. for 1st dan or above and I know that they would not be a dan in our org. but they have it none the less. But I digress, that is a whole different topic.

I am in agreeance with ninjamom as far as "portability" of rank, however....if you must go to a different school then you should show your knowledge to the head instructor and have rank transferred accordingly.

 

[Kacey]

Ultimately, I agree that the main benefit and importance of studying a martial art isn't tied to rank or organization. However, I think that one of the main benefits of certification is a certain level of standardization (in level of training, experience, skill set) at each rank, and therefore, the 'portability' of your training.

For example, our school is located just outside a major Naval facility. It is a fact of life in the military communities (and in most places in the US these days, and I assume many places around the world for that matter) that people move. For students in my area, the KKW certification not only guarantees they can compete as Dan holders, but it also means that when/if they move to a new location, their rank will be recognized. Skill levels and forms should also remain at the same level, from school to school. This means that Dan holders in one school, when they move, can step into positions of helping others to teach/train.

Ninjamom, I agree completely - these are other cases where having this type of certification - especially the part about moving - is particularly useful, and I can see people wanting their rank to be portable. Remembering as I say this that I come from and ITF background, and have never had a Kukkiwon certificate (and know about them only what I've read here and on other on-line sources) I would suggest, however, that a certificate your earn by having the testing instructor or your own instructor fill out a form and send in a fee is less useful for standardization than some others.

When I test for 1st dan TKD and hopefully pass in a few years I will want a KKW cert. I will not ever compete in regional sparring or above. I don't compete in sparring now. The thing is I just want it, just to have. I have a dan cert. from the USJA so having one from the KKW is just a novelty for me.

Another good reason; if it's worth paying for to you then, then pay for it. I will say that I could have gotten and ITF certificate for IV Dan, and it wasn't worth the fee to me, so I didn't do it.

I will say this with all sincerity though, the MSK cert. is the only one that I will have true value in. That is the one that was signed off on by GM Hildebrand and company. Those are the folks that trained me, the ones who have tested me, the ones that actually care and put there time into making sure I was doing things correctly etc.

Can't argue with that, as it's pretty much what I said.

I think the point I'm trying to get at is that there are many reasons to get Kukkiwon certification - but they are not valid for all people in all situations. If you want one, get it because you want it for some reason - but if you don't, why pay for it?

 

[Ninjamom]

......I would suggest, however, that a certificate your earn by having the testing instructor or your own instructor fill out a form and send in a fee is less useful for standardization than some others.

Yes, I certainly can't disagree with you there! Point taken

I am also taking another martial art, however (haedong kumdo). It is very new to this country (I think there are more schools for it in either Canada or Mexico than in the US, right now). I am very concerned to make sure that students in our school can take their knowledge with them when they move, and apply it to whatever new school/style they decide to train in. Rank recognized by the international HQ Federation will accomplish this for them. Because it is relatively new to the US, the Dan rankings must still be performed before a Grandmaster visiting from Korea. In this case, certification much more closely follows standardization (of skill level and performance), and assures a certain proficiency for further training or teaching (which is my interest).

I think the point I'm trying to get at is that there are many reasons to get Kukkiwon certification - but they are not valid for all people in all situations. If you want one, get it because you want it for some reason - but if you don't, why pay for it?

That about sums it up. I would say it is very important for competing or for teaching. Others may have other reasons, pro or con. But don't stop training because you can't afford the fee for the next Dan level.

 

[Bret Hinds]

I do not have a certification of rank from KKW, but I do have certification from my kwanjangnim. I am 3rd dan. I have BB in other styles as well, but they all are just a paper that said I tested in front of some one to test for rank. Some of my BB certifications mean more to me than the Org. that lists me. I am more proud of a simple black and white inked paper than some massed produced color odd sized wall chart from some guy or gal that I have never seen. It is the Ki that makes the BB not the paper. If you feel that you need a certification from KKW great go get one But ask your self want are you paying for? I have student from service bases as well , when they move or transfer I tell them to find a new school and watch the dojang leadership, and see what kind of school they have running. Then tell them to have there new Sabumnim call me and I will make sure of there rank transfer. Not all schools teach the same forms etc. They may not lose rank but they may have new forms to learn before they test for the next rank, Far be it from me to tell a Sabumnim how to run his or her school.All the best in the arts

 

[exile]

I do not have a certification of rank from KKW, but I do have certification from my kwanjangnim. I am 3rd dan. I have BB in other styles as well, but they all are just a paper that said I tested in front of some one to test for rank. Some of my BB certifications mean more to me than the Org. that lists me. I am more proud of a simple black and white inked paper than some massed produced color odd sized wall chart from some guy or gal that I have never seen. It is the Ki that makes the BB not the paper. If you feel that you need a certification from KKW great go get one But ask your self want are you paying for? I have student from service bases as well , when they move or transfer I tell them to find a new school and watch the dojang leadership, and see what kind of school they have running. Then tell them to have there new Sabumnim call me and I will make sure of there rank transfer. Not all schools teach the same forms etc. They may not lose rank but they may have new forms to learn before they test for the next rank, Far be it from me to tell a Sabumnim how to run his or her school.All the best in the arts

Bret---I like your take on this whole question. It's the instructor and the dojang that really qualify the student.

This issue of rank portability is tricky, and I can see more than one side to the story. But all other things being equal, I think your way of approaching it has a lot going for it... the theory that a centralized body really guarantees quality control is a very long stretch, and depends on a kind of oversight I don't see in place in the KKW world.

 

[terryl965]

Sorry Exile to getting back to you so late but here goes:

(1) does KKW certification protect you, the consumer, from the McDojang effect?

Certainly not there are so many instructor that will certified you if you have the money and really could not care about skill level. The only way is to try it out and see for yourself.

(2) does not having KKW certification mean a dojang automatically isn't a good bet for you?

Again having that certification meas nothing about your ability to teach, What is does allow is you to be part of the International circuit and a chance at the Olympic Team if we still have one at that time.

My take is this it is nice to have but it is only worth it if you are trying to be a International or Olympic competitor one day. The chances on that is 1 out 250,000 so it is a longshot the odds are better winning the Lottery.

Certification is only worth the paper it is printed on and Linage to me means about the same thing the most important aspect is training if you put everything into your training you will and can be the best that you would like to be.

I hope this answers those couple of question for you.
Terry

 

[exile]

Sorry Exile to getting back to you so late but here goes:

(1) does KKW certification protect you, the consumer, from the McDojang effect?

Certainly not there are so many instructor that will certified you if you have the money and really could not care about skill level. The only way is to try it out and see for yourself.

(2) does not having KKW certification mean a dojang automatically isn't a good bet for you?

Again having that certification meas nothing about your ability to teach, What is does allow is you to be part of the International circuit and a chance at the Olympic Team if we still have one at that time.

My take is this it is nice to have but it is only worth it if you are trying to be a International or Olympic competitor one day. The chances on that is 1 out 250,000 so it is a longshot the odds are better winning the Lottery.

Certification is only worth the paper it is printed on and Linage to me means about the same thing the most important aspect is training if you put everything into your training you will and can be the best that you would like to be.

I hope this answers those couple of question for you.
Terry

Amen, Terry. What you say here is the bottom line for me... especially, `the most important aspect is training'. In the end, that's always what it seems to come down to, eh? Even in the same dojang, with the same instructor, two different MAists at the same belt level can be wildly different in skill levels... one opting for the minimum, the other trying to master ever last tiny detail... both of them the same belt level.

 

[DArnold]

I would love to hear everybody rerasoning for certification and what do you feel would be the best way to go. What I personaly mean is this is the KKW the all and mighty since anyone with money can obtain one? Since only .01% of folks compete on the International Level is it worth the little cost that comes from it? Does a house belt from a repetable Instructor hold no merit anymore?

I ask these question for there have been alot of boat jumping the last couple of year and people scambleing to get in with certain orgs and leaving others, does this really matter to the mases out there and if so why?

I'm looking for some great input from all those we have here now and Please remember this is not about what is the Best but why we choose what we have and why some feel this is best.

Thank you all

Terry,
We call it the INTERNATIONAL DAN LINE It seems when many travel East to West (or is it West to East) they seem to gain rank just crossing this line. We haven't figured out yet if it is near the International Date line???

Rank / Certification is based on a needs: To feel like you have progressed, learned, acheived.

The responses to your question will depend on where a student is at in life and how they were raised.

I know some masters (VII dans), and many students who think that the piece of paper and the organization are the end-all-be-all of their training. That their patch represents honesty, integrity, ability... or something.

Personally I care very little about an overpriced piece of paper and a colored piece of cloth. I have found that those interested in the paper or cloth have had very little to teach me. I find that if I learn one new thing a day... then it is a good day.

On the other hand, as an Instructor I have also learned two things:

1. Rank is number one on the list for most all juniors - for whatever reason as it is the basis of the Martial Arts way.
2. I have never seen, been asked to produce, or have never asked anyone to see their paperwork when they have come to work out with me (Also what they wear on their waist is irrelivant) How they perform on the floor, mentally and physically tells me what rank they are!

The other amazing thing is

• that there are many organizations out there that charge hundreds of dollars for this peice of paper
• it takes them months to years to produce this peice of paper
• sometimes they can't even print out this piece of paper that costs hundreds of dollars!

And then the students don't understand why.

DUH

Seek out the instructor who would rather spend time teaching the white and yellow belts... rather than the high rank that would rather spend their time banqueting with the other seniors and you have found someone to follow.

 

[terryl965]

Terry,
We call it the INTERNATIONAL DAN LINE It seems when many travel East to West (or is it West to East) they seem to gain rank just crossing this line. We haven't figured out yet if it is near the International Date line???

Rank / Certification is based on a needs: To feel like you have progressed, learned, acheived.

The responses to your question will depend on where a student is at in life and how they were raised.

I know some masters (VII dans), and many students who think that the piece of paper and the organization are the end-all-be-all of their training. That their patch represents honesty, integrity, ability... or something.

Personally I care very little about an overpriced piece of paper and a colored piece of cloth. I have found that those interested in the paper or cloth have had very little to teach me. I find that if I learn one new thing a day... then it is a good day.

On the other hand, as an Instructor I have also learned two things:

1. Rank is number one on the list for most all juniors - for whatever reason as it is the basis of the Martial Arts way.
2. I have never seen, been asked to produce, or have never asked anyone to see their paperwork when they have come to work out with me (Also what they wear on their waist is irrelivant) How they perform on the floor, mentally and physically tells me what rank they are!

The other amazing thing is

• that there are many organizations out there that charge hundreds of dollars for this peice of paper
• it takes them months to years to produce this peice of paper
• sometimes they can't even print out this piece of paper that costs hundreds of dollars!

And then the students don't understand why.

DUH

Seek out the instructor who would rather spend time teaching the white and yellow belts... rather than the high rank that would rather spend their time banqueting with the other seniors and you have found someone to follow.

Sir I guess that is me I have more Yellow and beginners belts than BB, I enjoy teaching those that want to learn and really do not care about rank.

 

[wade]

Finally got around to reading this and wanted to say thanks terry, that does explain how I passed my KKW black belt test (money). If only I had know this sooner, think of all the time I could have saved. If I had known back then that having money was the only requirement I think I would have gone up through the ranks a lot quicker, oh well, better late than never, eh? So, once again thanks. Have y'all have a good New Year now, ya hear?

 

[terryl965]

Finally got around to reading this and wanted to say thanks terry, that does explain how I passed my KKW black belt test (money). If only I had know this sooner, think of all the time I could have saved. If I had known back then that having money was the only requirement I think I would have gone up through the ranks a lot quicker, oh well, better late than never, eh? So, once again thanks. Have y'all have a good New Year now, ya hear?

Wade did I offend you, If I did I'm sorry. I don't recall saying all people bought there but I do know some that have. Well like I said sorry if I offended you