The importance and maybe secrets of the Dan-tian

[Morphius]

Hello, the article below discusses the dan-tian/abdomen (pp. 28-34) in a historical and practical context, it also gives a translation of the a very old text called the Embryo Breathing Classic. Do you agree wit this article?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359231046_A_Brief_Overview_Comparing_the_Core_Theories_Cultivation_Practices_and_the_Interrelationships_of_Buddhism_Daoism_Brahmanism_and_Yoga

 

[O'Malley]

Welcome to MartialTalk.

The article is primarily a comparison of different Asian religions and the part you cited is related to martial practice only in a very tangential way. Hence, although dantian is a major part of my own art, I unfortunately cannot comment on the article.

 

[Morphius]

Welcome to MartialTalk.

The article is primarily a comparison of different Asian religions and the part you cited is related to martial practice only in a very tangential way. Hence, although dantian is a major part of my own art, I unfortunately cannot comment on the article.

The bhandas are mentioned to be similar to Taiji body posture adjustments did you see that?

Also, the paper mentions that the Dan-tian was originally a medical concept that later shifted and became much more like a cakra, the paper mentions the exact chakra too. What do you think?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Start with I am not an expert on any of this, I know more about Taoism that Buddhism. But with that said

I did not and will not read this entire thing, I skimmed it, so forgive me if I missed something. I realize you are cherry picking from Taoism to support what you say, but there is a lot more to Taoism than what you are using

Also, understand, unless you have a trained Chinese translator, who is specializing in the Daodejing, translating a version of the Daodejing for you, it is difficult to base much on any translation because they can vary from translator to translator

Example

Daodejing Chapter 19 may not be mentioning self, it may be saying Selfishness. They are not the same thing

Taoism existed before Buddhism arrived, it was not developed in response to Buddhism. It was developed off of what was allegedly taught by Lao Tzu, assuming he existed. Buddhism arrived in the first century CE. Forgetting Lao Tzu since he may or may not have existed, Chuang Tzu existed 4th century BC

as bhandas being similar to Taiji body posture adjustments. I disagree, but maybe you can explain in more detail as you think the are

 

[Morphius]

Start with I am not an expert on any of this, I know more about Taoism that Buddhism. But with that said

I did not and will not read this entire thing, I skimmed it, so forgive me if I missed something. I realize you are cherry picking from Taoism to support what you say, but there is a lot more to Taoism than what you are using

Also, understand, unless you have a trained Chinese translator, who is specializing in the Daodejing, translating a version of the Daodejing for you, it is difficult to base much on any translation because they can vary from translator to translator

Example

Daodejing Chapter 19 may not be mentioning self, it may be saying Selfishness. They are not the same thing

Taoism existed before Buddhism arrived, it was not developed in response to Buddhism. It was developed off of what was allegedly taught by Lao Tzu, assuming he existed. Buddhism arrived in the first century CE. Forgetting Lao Tzu since he may or may not have existed, Chuang Tzu existed 4th century BC

as bhandas being similar to Taiji body posture adjustments. I disagree, but maybe you can explain in more detail as you think the are

The person who wrote that Daoist religion was developed in response to the arrival of Buddhism was Victor Mair. He is the worlds number 1 leading Sinologist. I think us plebeians, need to be very careful to make unsubstantiated claims to what we want or wish Daoism to be. It’s probably not to good to deeply discuss a paper that one has only very briefly skimmed read because it’s too easy to miss what an author is actually saying.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Hello, the article below discusses the dan-tian/abdomen (pp. 28-34) in a historical and practical context, it also gives a translation of the a very old text called the Embryo Breathing Classic. Do you agree wit this article?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359231046_A_Brief_Overview_Comparing_the_Core_Theories_Cultivation_Practices_and_the_Interrelationships_of_Buddhism_Daoism_Brahmanism_and_Yoga

There are three seas of qi. The center of gravity, the crimson court, and the third eye.

These three roughly correspond to the Triple Burner.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The person who wrote that Daoist religion was developed in response to the arrival of Buddhism was Victor Mair. He is the worlds number 1 leading Sinologist. I think us plebeians, need to be very careful to make unsubstantiated claims to what we want or wish Daoism to be. It’s probably not to good to deeply discuss a paper that one has only very briefly skimmed read because it’s too easy to miss what an author is actually saying.

Then why did you ask? Are you the author?

When did Dr. Mair say that?

 

[Morphius]

There are three seas of qi. The center of gravity, the crimson court, and the third eye.

These three roughly correspond to the Triple Burner.

Oily Dragon. I’m a Chinese medicine practitioner. Normally the San jiao is not seen as something related to qi in general theory. It is generally seen as closely related to the water pathways and specially used as a diagnostic tool used in the Treaty on Warm Disease. Technically speaking the Sea of Qi is actually an acupuncture point in the belly.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Oily Dragon. I’m a Chinese medicine practitioner. Normally the San jiao is not seen as something related to qi in general theory. It is generally seen as closely related to the water pathways and specially used as a diagnostic tool used in the Treaty on Warm Disease. Technically speaking the Sea of Qi is actually an acupuncture point in the belly.

No it's not.

Try again. You can start with the Triple Burner points, specific fingers, and then work your way up to Iron Thread. I'm here all weekend.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The person who wrote that Daoist religion was developed in response to the arrival of Buddhism was Victor Mair. He is the worlds number 1 leading Sinologist. I think us plebeians, need to be very careful to make unsubstantiated claims to what we want or wish Daoism to be. It’s probably not to good to deeply discuss a paper that one has only very briefly skimmed read because it’s too easy to miss what an author is actually saying.

First, I do find being called a Plebian offensive, although I will go with you did not mean it to be

Now, except for the historical fact as to when Chuang Tzu (4th century BC) lived and when Buddhism arrived (1st century CE). Buddhism arriving much later...nothing to do with what I want anything to be, I work in historical facts that is all. Therefor how was Taoism developed in Response to Buddhism. Taoism is an indigenous religion of China. Per Chinese historians on the topic of Buddhism coming to China it is the reverse, Buddhism was influenced by Taoism and therefore became Chan which then went to Japan as Zen. Also per Chinese historians Taoism was influenced by Buddhism as well, but it was still there prior to Buddhism arrival

Also I still maintain, and it has happened many times when translating Chinese, Chapter 19 is not self, but selfishness. Would not be the first time Chinese was mistranslated and taken as fact. See the term Kung Fu

And why do you feel the bhandas are similar to Taiji body posture adjustments.

 

[Oily Dragon]

First, I do find being called a Plebian offensive, although I will go with you did not mean it to be

Now, except for the historical fact as to when Chuang Tzu (4th century BC) lived and when Buddhism arrived (1st century CE). Buddhism arriving much later...nothing to do with what I want anything to be, I work in historical facts that is all. Therefor how was Taoism developed in Response to Buddhism. Taoism is an indigenous religion of China. Per Chinese historians on the topic of Buddhism coming to China it is the reverse, Buddhism was influenced by Taoism and therefore became Chan which then went to Japan as Zen. Also per Chinese historians Taoism was influenced by Buddhism as well, but it was still there prior to Buddhism arrival

Also I still maintain, and it has happened many times when translating Chinese, Chapter 19 is not self, but selfishness. Would not be the first time Chinese was mistranslated and taken as fact. See the term Kung Fu

And why do you feel the bhandas are similar to Taiji body posture adjustments.

Buddhism was in China a lot earlier than the 1st century AD.

All of Asia, really. How could it not be.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Buddhism was in China a lot earlier than the 1st century AD.

All of Asia, really. How could it not be.

Like I said Chuang Tzu, considered a Taoist, lived during the 4th century BC

 

[Oily Dragon]

Like I said Chuang Tzu, considered a Taoist, lived during the 4th century BC

You know how to find your lower Dan Tien?

Place two fingers three inches below your navel, and blow.

 

[Morphius]

No it's not.

Try again. You can start with the Triple Burner points, specific fingers, and then work your way up to Iron Thread. I'm here all weekend.

Seems like you are following some obscure and weird system- I’d be careful.

No it's not.

Try again. You can start with the Triple Burner points, specific fingers, and then work your way up to Iron Thread. I'm here all weekend.

 

[Morphius]

First, I do find being called a Plebian offensive, although I will go with you did not mean it to be

Now, except for the historical fact as to when Chuang Tzu (4th century BC) lived and when Buddhism arrived (1st century CE). Buddhism arriving much later...nothing to do with what I want anything to be, I work in historical facts that is all. Therefor how was Taoism developed in Response to Buddhism. Taoism is an indigenous religion of China. Per Chinese historians on the topic of Buddhism coming to China it is the reverse, Buddhism was influenced by Taoism and therefore became Chan which then went to Japan as Zen. Also per Chinese historians Taoism was influenced by Buddhism as well, but it was still there prior to Buddhism arrival

Also I still maintain, and it has happened many times when translating Chinese, Chapter 19 is not self, but selfishness. Would not be the first time Chinese was mistranslated and taken as fact. See the term Kung Fu

And why do you feel the bhandas are similar to Taiji body posture adjustments.

Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.

 

[O'Malley]

The bhandas are mentioned to be similar to Taiji body posture adjustments did you see that?

Also, the paper mentions that the Dan-tian was originally a medical concept that later shifted and became much more like a cakra, the paper mentions the exact chakra too. What do you think?

There is a line mentioning a similarity but not more. Again, the link to martial practice is so superficial that it's difficult to discuss it in a meaningful way.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A

Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.

You are coming in pretty hot here, are you a martial artist?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.

I know what plebeian means, thank you. And noticed you get condescending when questioned, "royalty" really. And many more make major mistakes translating traditional Chinese because of their understanding of the current simplified form. My wife has corrected this for several people who brought translations to her. She is well trained in classical Chinese characters. As well as Traditional Chinese Medicine

So Sima Qian (145 - 86BC) was politically motivated, ok.

To say Taoism came into being because of Buddhism's arrival is flat out wrong. There is no doubt of that. Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu) lived during the 4th century BC and Buddhism shows up in the 1st century CE. Also Sima Qian refers to Zhuangzi as well as Laozi in Sima Qian's History, which is from the Han Dynasty (206 BCE to 220 CE)

So Taoist philosophy existed a long time prior to the arrival of Buddhism. However you can make a case for organized Taoism, as in the form of Taoist Sects appearing after the arrival of Buddhism. The first recorded Taoist Sect was the Tianshi (celestial masters) which appears in the 2nd century CE

But to say Buddhism is what caused the creation of Taoism is flat out wrong

Heck the earliest know Dao De Jing is from around 300 BCE and then the silk scrolls show up around 200BCE. All long before Buddhism

and you have still not answered why you feel there is a similarity between the bhandas and taijiquan.

​

 

[Oily Dragon]

Seems like you are following some obscure and weird system- I’d be careful.

Interesting! You posted a thread about the lower Dan Tien, asked for comments, and then told me you were a Chinese medicine practicioner.

After you claimed to not understand that are actually 3 Dan Tien, and you think the triple burner meridian and accupoints are obscure and weird? That's the really weird of this conversatuon (for me). "Not related to qi"? Yes of course it is.

None of this is obscure, and should be known to any TCM afficianado. Are you in need of serious instructuon?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.

Wrong again, sir. On every point you made.

Anti Chinese bigotry, really dude?