The Egalitarian Blackbelt...

[Makalakumu]

I was reading some posts on this forum and I came across the sentiment that basically stated that everyone should be able to get their blackbelt if they put in the work and the time. On the surface, this seems like a good philosophic position, but as we all know, much of the details are going to depend on the standards set by the instructor. I can't help wondering if this sentiment has led to an overall lowering of standards by teachers so that this objective can be met by everyone.

With that in mind, what do you think about the egalitarian blackbelt? Should anyone and everyone be able to earn it, or should it be a mark that only a select few can attain?

I've seen it go both ways in various schools in which I've set foot. One TKD megadojang was cranking out blackbelts with 2 years of training...and, well, considering the amount of time they trained, they weren't bad. And then you've got Gracie Juijutsu, where it can take up to 10 years or more to earn a blackbelt and you might be a white belt for 2 to 3 years. My personal opinion on this is that I think that less is more and that earning a blackbelt should really be an exceptional feat.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings, your thoughts?

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I lean toward a middle ground. Say, about 4-5 years for black belt.
Also, with bjj, there are only four or so belt colors (white, blue, purple, brown), so progress seems far slower. My pet peeve does not lie with slow ranking styles, but with the fast ranking ones, like you stated above.

As for everyone being able to attain black belt, that is a tough one. I know of a student who has been the same rank for about many years now (8th kyu). Should time take over and the student be promoted based on time in the art? Or should he get it together and learn the material? To make it worse, the young man may have a learning disability, so he may not be able to learn the material to begin with.

Also, what do you do with physically handicapped people? If they are in a wheelchair, do you tell them too bad, do you alter the requirements for that person, or do you just give that person the black belt after a certain amount of time, or perhaps and "honorary" black belt?

Food for thought.

AoG

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I think everyone has the capability in them to earn a blackbelt. That doesn't mean I think if you don't put in the sweat and blood you should get one. Saying it's possible to get a black belt in two years is OK. Telling someone they will get their shodan in two years is just plain wrong, as you don't know how much work they'll put into it.

Jeff

 

[tshadowchaser]

My personal opinion on this is that I think that less is more and that earning a blackbelt should really be an exceptional feat

I agree but that also may close down many schools or even kill off some systems because all of a sudden there is no one to pass on the knowledge

I also think some people can just not grasp the concepts of some systems enough to deserve a BB

 

[Danny T]

The Egalitarian black belt? An egalitarian is one who works for equal rights. Therefore an egalitarian black belt would be a black belt who works for equal rights??? Ok! I read it again, you are speaking to everyone being equal and being able to get a black belt.

Are you asking if anyone and everyone who trains for a particular amount of time should be awarded the almighty Black Belt? Or, are you asking, “Should anyone and everyone be able to earn it?” There is a big difference in these two questions and the answers are different as well.

In our training center everyone is given the equal opportunity to earn a black belt, many have done so and they are proudly honored by the members of the training center however, black belts are never given simply because some one has been training. It must be Earned.

“… or should it be a mark that only a select few can attain?”

Attain; means to achieve, accomplish, or gain; to succeed in reaching. In order to attain the goal of Black Belt Rank the standards, set forth by the training center and the associations we are members of, must be met and the individual must be able to perform the material to that standard, as well as have a working knowledge of how to utilize the movements and be able to create techniques based upon what is happening at any one point in time. The techniques must be functional by that person at that moment against a resisting opponent. This being stated, that is how it is at our training center based upon our mission. Another school, academy, or training facility with a different mission will have a different criteria I’m certain. I can’t speak to what other schools or associations do.

 

[Haze]

Requirements need to be set. At the same time I do not expect a 60 yr old to do what a 25 yr old can do.

Requirements are needed as far as kata/forms, technique, self defense applications, etc.

But all of this has to be judged individualy pertaining to each student. Did he/she give it their all? Is it the best they can do?

Is it not true that the WAY is an individual journey? We, as instructors are only showing someone the path?

As mentioned above pertaining to someone in a wheelchair,,,,,,,,,,Sorry,
You can not train with me because you are not capable of doing the things that need to be done. Sorry.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I guess it all depends on what you're studying.

There are some schools that quite possibly could award a black belt to every student, should they stick it out long enough.

A black belt is like a high school diploma......it takes some people a bit longer to meet the requirements and some just drop out before they graduate.

Now which high school are you attending.......the local public high school or west point?

I think the type, quality, and difficulty level all play a part in someone's ability to reach a black belt level......and all black belts are not created equal.

Now i seem to be rambling.

 

[Kacey]

Requirements need to be set. At the same time I do not expect a 60 yr old to do what a 25 yr old can do.

I agree with this part.

Requirements are needed as far as kata/forms, technique, self defense applications, etc.

I agree with this part also.

But all of this has to be judged individualy pertaining to each student. Did he/she give it their all? Is it the best they can do?

This part also.

Is it not true that the WAY is an individual journey? We, as instructors are only showing someone the path?

Indeed.

As mentioned above pertaining to someone in a wheelchair,,,,,,,,,,Sorry,
You can not train with me because you are not capable of doing the things that need to be done. Sorry.

So having said everything else that you said, I don't understand (or agree) with this part. If the way is individual, if requirements need to be met while adjusting for age - why not a person in a wheelchair, if s/he can meet the requirements? What about people who have other problems - blind, deaf, cerebral palsy, limited cognitive ability - are they barred as well? Where do you draw the line? At the point where having the person in class is not optimal for you? I have two students who have limited cognitive ability, one of whom has cerebral palsy as well; I have had students in the past who were deaf, including one who wore an oxygen tube continuously (she had to get a backpack for the compressor tank, and a longer tube) - should I have refused to teach them because it was not optimal for the others in the class? What about the girl I taught who had a congenital deformity leaving one forearm and lower leg shorter than the other side? Should I have refused her? What about the several students I've had who had emotional issues (including a couple who have been hospitalized for biochemical mood disorders)? Should I have refused them? What about the one with diabetes?

I know a lot of people who would refuse some (and potentially all) of the students I listed - and I have had students in every category I listed except blind - and I would have taken the blind woman who asked me about attending class if she had actually followed through and shown up. Are they optimal students? Physically, often not. Mentally, however, they put so much energy into what they are doing, because they want it despite the additional obstacles put in their way, that they demonstrate perseverance in a way I could never manage myself, and teach my students and me far more some things than would ever happen in their absence.

This may seem to be an excessive response to you - but this is something I feel strongly about. To return to the student in the wheelchair... I'm glad you're sorry you would exclude this person. I'm sorry for you that your horizons are that self-limiting.

 

[Makalakumu]

As far as this discussion goes, I think that I am really attempting to analyze the difference in philosophy behind the megaTKD dojang that 100s of black belts vs the GJJ studio that is lucky to even have a black belt teaching. Sure, there are standards for each one that people are meeting, but the ethos behind those standards is completely different. In one, most people can attain a BB and in another most cannot. One gives a pretty equal shot to many many more people and another is very very exclusive.

What do you think about this difference? Pros and cons?

 

[Kacey]

As far as this discussion goes, I think that I am really attempting to analyze the difference in philosophy behind the megaTKD dojang that 100s of black belts vs the GJJ studio that is lucky to even have a black belt teaching. Sure, there are standards for each one that people are meeting, but the ethos behind those standards is completely different. In one, most people can attain a BB and in another most cannot. One gives a pretty equal shot to many many more people and another is very very exclusive.

What do you think about this difference? Pros and cons?

I think that there needs to be a happy medium. If the goal that draws people in is so unattainable that very few reach it, the art risks being lost entirely as people drop out and no one remains to teach it. If the goal that draws people in is so attainable that everyone, regardless of effort, reaches it, then it becomes meaningless.

I think that black belt should be an attainable, but difficult, goal. It should be possible for most people who put for sufficient effort in training and learning to be able to reach black belt - it should be rigorous, but not so rigorous that it is unattainable for the vast majority of people.

 

[Danjo]

If it were only about a particular level of physical skill, then old men would not be getting the highest ranks intheir arts as their physical skils diminshed. It's about a lot of things besides pure physical skill. Mental also plays a huge part and the ability to pass the knowledge that you have on to others. Everyone has different strengths etc. and a good instructor will know when a person has made sufficient progress to merit a particular rank.

As to the everyone having access to black belt: That shouldn't be a problem because most that start toward one will not finish the journey anyways. Perserverance should be one of the qualities IMO.

 

[matt.m]

Wow, I am physically disabled. I wear two leg braces, I have to until bilateral knee replacement. I also have a very bad back. The teachers know that I don't do everything taught in the warmup I am somewhat limited at the kicks I can do as well.

However, this does not keep me from tkd class. This July that just passed I was awarded green belt after testing for it. For example, the blue belt req.'s from grn to blue are 3 more one step sparring and two more forms. In the 12 one step sparring all side jumps are more of a slide. I don't know, I am more in the "Make a way for it to work, don't make it hurt you.", philosophy.

I know a 3rd dan in our org. that has torn up knees as well, accomodations were made for her as well.

 

[Haze]

So having said everything else that you said, I don't understand (or agree) with this part. If the way is individual, if requirements need to be met while adjusting for age - why not a person in a wheelchair, if s/he can meet the requirements? What about people who have other problems - blind, deaf, cerebral palsy, limited cognitive ability - are they barred as well? Where do you draw the line? At the point where having the person in class is not optimal for you? I have two students who have limited cognitive ability, one of whom has cerebral palsy as well; I have had students in the past who were deaf, including one who wore an oxygen tube continuously (she had to get a backpack for the compressor tank, and a longer tube) - should I have refused to teach them because it was not optimal for the others in the class? What about the girl I taught who had a congenital deformity leaving one forearm and lower leg shorter than the other side? Should I have refused her? What about the several students I've had who had emotional issues (including a couple who have been hospitalized for biochemical mood disorders)? Should I have refused them? What about the one with diabetes?

I know a lot of people who would refuse some (and potentially all) of the students I listed - and I have had students in every category I listed except blind - and I would have taken the blind woman who asked me about attending class if she had actually followed through and shown up. Are they optimal students? Physically, often not. Mentally, however, they put so much energy into what they are doing, because they want it despite the additional obstacles put in their way, that they demonstrate perseverance in a way I could never manage myself, and teach my students and me far more some things than would ever happen in their absence.

This may seem to be an excessive response to you - but this is something I feel strongly about. To return to the student in the wheelchair... I'm glad you're sorry you would exclude this person. I'm sorry for you that your horizons are that self-limiting.

A person in a wheelchair could not meet my requirements. When I said you have to make allowances for things, age, disabilities, etc, I did not mean to drop the requirement all together.

Kacey,,, I admire the fact that you can except those students and from looking at your background you are educated in dealing with those that may have special needs. I am not.

I do not run a commercial dojo. I do not take all students that come to me. I do not ask for any money. I take those that are reffered to me by other students (but not all of them). And I teach what I believe to be a combat self defense system that is hands on training. You need to get on the mat. you need to get thrown around. You are going to get hit. That's the way it is here.

We are not breaking boards.

PEACE
David

 

[Kacey]

A person in a wheelchair could not meet my requirements. When I said you have to make allowances for things, age, disabilities, etc, I did not mean to drop the requirement all together.

So... people who are disabled don't need to learn to defend themselves? I'm not talking about rank here, necessarily, and I realize that this is somewhat off the topic of the thread - and to get back to the thread, no, I don't think that a black belt should be guaranteed, the way some McDojos guarantee them. But I'm not going to tell a motivated student with a disability that s/he can't try.

Kacey,,, I admire the fact that you can except those students and from looking at your background you are educated in dealing with those that may have special needs. I am not.

I am now... I wasn't when the first one walked in the door. I was teaching TKD before I was teaching school, and my first disabled student showed up before I finished my teaching certificate, certainly before I started teaching special education. And even with that, the kids I teach at school are learning disabled - they have trouble with reading, writing, and math - in the last 10 years, I've had only 3 students at school who had physical disabilities that affected them in a school setting. Very little of what I do at work transfers over to what I do in the dojang.

I do not run a commercial dojo. I do not take all students that come to me. I do not ask for any money. I take those that are reffered to me by other students (but not all of them). And I teach what I believe to be a combat self defense system that is hands on training. You need to get on the mat. you need to get thrown around. You are going to get hit. That's the way it is here.

I don't run a commercial dojang either - I teach for a YMCA, and I don't have a choice about taking all the students who come to me. The only limit the Y put on my class is an age limit, for safety reasons... and I'll take kids below the age limit (10) if they meet certain maturity and coordination requirements. And yes, I get most of my new students through referral from current and previous students. I haven't had a student in a wheelchair, but I do know some, and there are threads about others on this site- here's one - and they don't have any problems getting on the mat and getting thrown around, with or without the chair - as getting dragged out of the chair is something that people in them need to learn to defend against. Simply because a person has a disability doesn't mean that they can't learn what you teach... assuming you're willing to teach them. Yes, it is harder to teach some disabled people - some it's not. And what I've learned modifying techniques to the needs of some of my students (including people with bad backs, long- and short-term injuries, and medical conditions, along with the ones previously mentioned) taught me a great deal about how techniques work, making me a better instructor.

We are not breaking boards.

What does that have to do with it? Yes, we break boards... about once every 3 or 4 months. Board breaking is, by no means, a major part of what we do.

 

[Bigshadow]

As Danjo said, there is more to it! It isn't JUST physical skill alone. At some point the emphasis changes from being all physical skill, to things that are not quite so tangible. These things in my opinion are wisdom, a deep understanding of the art (ie the principles underlying the kata and techniques), and an altruistic desire to impart the knowledge to others who truly want to learn. Certainly this is after one has truly learned the basics and foundation of the art. There are things, that must be transmitted by kuden, and then there are things that are discovered on their own.

It is these solo discoveries that develops the wisdom and deep understanding of the art. I believe it is a natural progression to then want to share the art with others who seek out the training.

There is more but this is a rough rendition of what I am thinking. Just my humble opinion.

 

[pete]

its like the guy in spinal tap with the amp that goes up to 11. the black belt and and all the levels in between are relative to what is inside your box.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I understand it's become a tradition over the last hundred years but personally, I'm still not sold on the idea that there should be colored belt ranks of any kind *at all*.


You can either step up and do a certain part of a curriculum, or you can't. *shrug*. Tests should be about YOU, not how your belt changes.

It's a nice motivator for some folks but i believe they take up far too much of the focus these days.

 

[Shicomm]

There are people that can work by the book absolutely perfect.
They take the task and stuff needed , work precise and succeed because they do what they're good at.

But there are those that are not that gifted.
They can work hard but they fail more often.
But they are willing to learn and they are following a path as well.

So yes , i think that people that are not that gifted but are willing to learn and put the effort in should be ranked as well.
At some point they can get to the level of black belt.

If i would be in the 2nd group and knew that i had the will to learn and the uptime in the arts i would have absolutely no problem with that.

 

[donna]

I have met many blackbelts from different styles, and can honestly say that it isnt always the most phyisically capable people that have the right mental maturity to deserve the belt they have.

 

[Steve]

One of the things I really like about the increasingly unique ranking structure in BJJ is that not everyone will become a black belt (or even a brown or purple belt). At the same time, I wonder what the belts have to do with someone training. Really.

I enjoy writing even as I know I am unlikely to ever make my living as a novelist (or even approach being published). There are benefits to me apart from that. I enjoy many things without giving much thought about achieving some arbitrary rank. Why then, would I consider achieving a black belt any differently?

I would train in BJJ as I could, even if I knew that I would never get another belt promotion. It's not why I train. Just because a person doesn't attain rank doesn't mean they don't GAIN or GROW from the training. There are guys at my school who are not likely to ever acheive blue belt. They've been training for a long time and, whether due to age or infirmity, just aren't likely to progress. And yet they do train and don't seem to be bothered at all by it... or even think about it much.

So, to answer the question, my opinion is that a black belt should be something that is beyond the reach of some. Or said another way, if someone is unable to accomplish whatever the specific requirements are for a black belt in a particular style, they should not expect accommodations to be made for them. This does not mean that they couldn't or shouldn't train.