The effect of your weapons training on your empty handed abilities???

[Brother John]

I'm currently a very curious and enthusiastic 'outsider' to the Ninjutsu realm, which is a long way of saying "I've got LOTS O' questions". Here's one I've been thinking about.

Point #1: The weapons training in Ninjutsu is Extensive, from what I understand. The number of weapons (standard ones, not including improvised or the very exotic/rare ones ...etc.) The means of employing them is also elaborate and extensive.

Point #2: I do have experience and knowledge of 'other' martial arts that train in weapons as well as empty hand techniqes and I know that the use or practice of these weapons augments the 'expression' of the non-weapon techniques/applications. For instance: the Philipino styles...they are 'weapons first, hands later'...and their empty hand stuff is merely their weapons movement patterns and timing w/out the weapon. Also: Aikido, from what I understand, has at it's core-patterns the 'Flavor' of Kenjutsu as O'Sensei was first a Kenjutsu-ka.

So how is it in Ninjutsu? What is the empty hand effect/result have having such an extensive weapons system of training?

I hope I'm being clear. If further explanation/clarification is needed....please just ask.

Thanks
Your Brother
John

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In some aspects it's similar to weapons training in FMA, only we'd probably say "what can be done unarmed can also be done with weapons" while the Filipino practitioners would say "what can be done with weapons may also be done empty handed".

 

[Cryozombie]

Agreed...

From my experience... all weapons techiques we use come from solid unarmed combat skills...

Back when I was a 9th Kyu, after getting frutstrated at my lack of sword skills My old instructor said to me "Your weapon skills will improve when your Taijutsu improves"

I think that makes sense.

 

[Kreth]

My old instructor said to me "Your weapon skills will improve when your Taijutsu improves"

I agree with this wholeheartedly. A lot of students want to jump right into sword and bo, without realizing that weapons only amplify holes in your taijutsu.

Jeff

 

[AaronLucia]

Yep, i remember when i first started playing with the hanbo i noticed my hands were in the same positions they would be without the weapon..

 

[Enson]

In some aspects it's similar to weapons training in FMA, only we'd probably say "what can be done unarmed can also be done with weapons" while the Filipino practitioners would say "what can be done with weapons may also be done empty handed".

i agree too. if you can employ the move without the weapon you can employ the move with the weapon... with practice of course.
peace

 

[Brother John]

Are there some weapons that this applies to more than others??
For instane I'd imagine (please recal, I'm on the outside looking in) that tantojutsu would be more in line (less "interpretation/alteration") with your regular Taijutsu than say Kusarigama-jutsu. (sp?)

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

i agree too. if you can employ the move without the weapon you can employ the move with the weapon... with practice of course.
peace

This is true, I agree. It's also what most any martial art that teaches weaponry says. BUT: What I guess I was getting at is the reverse of this. Does your weapon work influence/augment the development and cultivation of your Taijutsu?

am I being clear????? Hope so.
thanks for bearing with me.

Your Brother
John

 

[althaur]

It's all connected. They are tied into each other. You can't suck at your empty hand taijutsu and excel at swords or any other weapon(except maybe a rifle). If you think your taijutsu is good but you suck with a weapon in your hands, guess what? Your taijutsu isn't as good as you think. It is all analogous(I hope that's the right word, if not Dale can thump me some more).

 

[Kreth]

For instane I'd imagine (please recal, I'm on the outside looking in) that tantojutsu would be more in line (less "interpretation/alteration") with your regular Taijutsu than say Kusarigama-jutsu.

Not as much as you'd think. Different types of weapons just employ different types of movement. For example (and this is a bit of a generalization), chain weapons tend to use circular movement, to protect one's own body from the weapon.

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'd say that using a tanto is more in line with regular taijutsu training than defending against one is. The latter scenario, IMHO, calls for far more caution and brutality than is common in training these days, mainly because you can't move in the same way on an attacker who might pull a knife or a razor in the middle of the altercation, that you would on someone who is unarmed.

 

[Enson]

Does your weapon work influence/augment the development and cultivation of your Taijutsu?Your Brother
John

i have thought about this alot. the answer is no. taijutsu is in and of itself ideally perfect. it needs not have a weapon to develope/cultivate it further. kenjutsu and shurikenjutsu and others are all seperate entities. all working together to make one a... how do i say this?.. "total warrior". naturally in combat you will ideally use all your skills toward defeating your enemy.

i hope that answers your question.

peace

 

[Don Roley]

Does your weapon work influence/augment the development and cultivation of your Taijutsu?

Yes.

Rather, it may be better to say that weapon work influenced and augmented the development of taijutsu as a whole.

Taijutsu was born in an age where guys ran around chopping each other with large, sharp objects. Everything in taijutsu had to be built around this reality. Pick up many weapons like a sword and you realize the first rule of surviving facing one is not be there when the blow hits. I used to do an art that was heavy on blocks and did almost nothing involving avoiding a blow. As long as both guys have no weapon, that can be a valid plan. But if you suspect the other guy even might have a weapon you better start using your legs to move out of the way instead of standing there and "taking it."

So by using swords and such, you quickly learn to move. Nothing like a bokken coming at your head to cure you of the habit of sticking around and overcoming attacks. Bokken and such move faster than hands, so you also pick up the ability to deal with speed. And large, heavy weapons force you to use your entire body to wield them rather than try to use just your arms.

Also, paired weapon work is a bit more dangerous than unarmed training. The stress of being just in the right position to avoid a powered blow by a bokken is rather high. You don't need to just move, you need to move EXACTLY in the way the move is meant to be. All this while under pressure of potential injury. Getting used to dealing with pressure while still moving in the correct manner is a very, very valuable part of the training regime IMO. But now it is a little hard to pull off in the enviroment of Northern American dojos with their tons of lawyers waiting to sue.

I have heard it said that if you pick up a weapon your bad habits will be easier to see. That has been my experience as well. Using weapons gives you the insight into realities that you might miss if you only dealt with unarmed aspects.

But first you have to get those unarmed aspects down real good.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I heartily agree. What's sad to see however, is that from my experience, there's a trend in the Bujinkan nowadays to introduce beginners to weapons training as pertaining to the yearly theme much sooner than would be preferable.

 

[Ronald R. Harbers]

I can testify that training with the suburito and bokken has definitely increased the snap of my punches.

 

[Cryozombie]

Sorry,

whats a Suburito?

Sounds like somthing on the Taco Bell 99 cent menu...

But seriously, I dont know the term.

 

[Don Roley]

A suburito is a heavy, heavy bokken meant for solo training.

Weird thing too, I once had to take a trip and swung through Tokyo to get one on my way to see some friends. For a month I was away from training but used my suburito everyday since I had it.

At the end of the month I got together with a friend that I trained with and we did what we normally did to warm up- a little knife sparring. Mind you, I had not trained with a partner for a month and most of my training was with my new toy. Depsite this I ripped him apart in a very visible improvement of my ability to deal with timing.

I have held the belief that sword training has a use in the modern day ever since.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I have held the belief that sword training has a use in the modern day ever since.

As a matter of fact, roughly a year ago a nutcase with a katana sword attacked two old ladies some 100 meters away from my dojo, killing one and seriously injuring the other. And still, there are those who claim that the usefulness of sword training is mere rhetorical nonsense.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Here's something I like about weapons training:

Play around with a heavy bo-staff or naginata, and see how much it amplifies mistakes in balance and posture. I can sometimes get away with leaning over a little when punching, but if my spine isn't stacked vertically when I try swinging a long, heavy weapon, I pitch right over, and my timing is shattered as I try to get my balance back.

Remembering those lessons helps alot towards my empty-handed ability.

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

I think the empty hands are the way to begin and of course strengtening the arms, wrists and shoulders for the weapons that are newer and better at, distance from the enemy. Fire arms!

Silent but deadly is needed, but when full fledged combat is happening, firearms are the way to go.

Regards, Gary

Aka Barefooten, sticks, and small lead stones.