The difference between point sparring and how we spar...

Makalakumu

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First of all, let me describe point sparring. This is the type of sparring that is done with minimal to no contact. In Soo Bahk Do, there is no contact at the lower levels and maybe touch contact at the higher levels. The theory behind this is that you are showing that you can strike to a target area and control the strike so that it does no harm.

The rules of point sparring are as follows...

1. Sparring occurs in a two minute round and continues until a judge has determined that a point has been scored. The judge will stop the time and interupt the action to award the point to one contestant or another.

2. Target areas are all located above the belt with the front of the head and torso being open. Targets on the back of the torso or the back of the head or forbidden.

3. Different techniques are awarded different values of points. A simple punch or a kick that scores is worth one point. A jump kick or a spin kick that scores is worth two points. A jump spinning kick that scores is worth three points. If you block and counter with a clean and efficient counter, you may be awarded an additional point at the judges discretion.

4. Matches are decided by the first contestent to be awarded five points. All matches must be won by two points in order to show a clear winner.

5. Disqualification will take place for the following reasons; excessive contact (pretty much any), techniques to forbidden areas, blind techniques, and poor sportsmanship. For the former three, you will be given one warning before being DQed. For the latter you will be immediately ejected.

As you can see, this is very different then how we spar right now. We don't stop the action. We don't keep track of points. We use contact. And we spar with a fluid system of rules that depends on what I'm trying to teach at the time.

For the next seven weeks, we will be sparring with point sparring rules and I'm going to be teaching everyone how to judge so that they will better know what to expect. Further, my hope is that you will be able to draw your own conclusions regarding point sparring and understand why we don't do it this way.

The bottom line is that I think that point sparring is fun. However, its a stylized game of tag. If you want to win under these rules, you need to think of it like that.
 

Kacey

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Our point sparring (ITF TKD) is quite similar, except that the back of the head is a legal target, there are no targets on the neck, and time is not stopped to award points.

Also, only the first point seen is awarded; no successive points can be earned on a particular exchange. Points are awarded by vote of the 4 corner judges. Matches end when one competitor has a clear 3 point lead, or when the 2 minutes ends. Before the points are tallied, the center referee (who does vote on points during the match) tells the scorekeeper who s/he thinks won, but that vote is used only to break ties.

In some variations of point sparring, all techniques (regardless of difficulty) earn 1 point; for those matches, a 3 point spread determines the match. In other variations, more difficult techniques earn more points (1, 2, or 3, depending on technique and target - jump kicks to the body are worth 2 points, whereas jump kicks to the head are worth 3); for those matches, a 5 point spread determines the match.

The purpose of sparring in general is to practice the techniques one has learned in a (relatively) controlled and safe environment. The purpose of point sparring is to practice single strike techniques, whereas free sparring (non-point) is to practice combinations and counter attacks.

Sparring - point and free - is a game, and the purpose of the game is to score points. Fighting (as opposed to sparring) is a different activity altogether, where points are meaningless, flashy techniques are dangerous and potentially deadly, and blocks and counter attacks can mean the difference between surviving (if battered and bruised) and being beaten to a pulp.
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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As far as judging is concerned, at this tournament, there will be four corner judges and one center judge. All judges can stop the action to award a point if one is scored. The center judge, however, controls the action of the match and makes the final decision regarding points.

Okay, so here is the process...

1. The corner judges will all have red and white flags and the competitors will have red or white strips of cloth tied to the backs of their belts.

2. When the center judge commences the match, the time begins sparring ensues.

3. When a judge sees a point, they will halt the match and the clock and raise either the left or the right flag to indicate which side scored the point.

4. A number of fingers on the hand holding the flag will be used indicate the number of points awarded.

5. The center judge will look for agreement from other judges to actually award the point.

6. At this point, the judges will either vote in agreement by rasing their flags or hold both flags down indicating no point.

7. A competitor must receive three out of five votes from a judges to be awarded a point.

8. Once a point is determined, the center judge will line the competitors back up and restart the match.

9. Matches are won when five points are scored by one competitor or another with all matches having to be won by two points.

10. If the time runs out before five points are awarded, then the competitor with the most points will be awarded the victory regardless of how many points are amassed.
 

MBuzzy

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UpNorth - may I add...

Soo Bahk Do point sparring also requires proper technique. This is BY FAR the most difficult thing for me to get used to. There are no points awarded for "half techniques" or "improper techniques." Meaning if you throw a kick without proper hip rotation, without full extension, or it hits with the wrong place (i.e. a roundhouse hitting with the shin rather than instep or ball of foot), there will be NO POINT and sparring continues.

Another interesting rule that I've used to my advantage is that 2 points are scored for "double techniques" or combinations. Though this seems to make no sense, it means that you can do a technique that has no value and get awarded a point. Basically, do a combination of low block then kick, even if the block did not block anything, you will get 2 points. One of my favorites is the first move from Yuk Ro Cho Dan Hyung (double back fist with arms extended). Even though the back arm makes no contact, if the front one does, its worth an extra point.
 

JT_the_Ninja

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I don't do sparring in tournaments, for two reasons: (1) I'm asthmatic, and I don't want to spend all my energy on sparring when I'd be doing breaking about the same time, and (2) I'm more practical than point-oriented when sparring. The counters I use and set-ups I employ just don't work without at least enough extension to cause contact. I have the range to keep my distance and put my techniques exactly where I want them, but my personal style isn't fit for simple, clean point-scoring unless there's contact.

Anyway, one note about ITSDF sparring that might be interesting, don't know if anyone's mentioned it: foot attacks to the head are fine, but no hand attacks.

Tang Soo!
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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UpNorth - may I add...

Soo Bahk Do point sparring also requires proper technique. This is BY FAR the most difficult thing for me to get used to. There are no points awarded for "half techniques" or "improper techniques." Meaning if you throw a kick without proper hip rotation, without full extension, or it hits with the wrong place (i.e. a roundhouse hitting with the shin rather than instep or ball of foot), there will be NO POINT and sparring continues.

Another interesting rule that I've used to my advantage is that 2 points are scored for "double techniques" or combinations. Though this seems to make no sense, it means that you can do a technique that has no value and get awarded a point. Basically, do a combination of low block then kick, even if the block did not block anything, you will get 2 points. One of my favorites is the first move from Yuk Ro Cho Dan Hyung (double back fist with arms extended). Even though the back arm makes no contact, if the front one does, its worth an extra point.

Thanks. That's really interesting. I knew about the first one, but the second one must be something new. I wonder what the thought behind it is?

I used to be quite good at point sparring. I won first place two years in a row...the two years I competed. But that was nine years ago. I'm curious to see how well I would do if I jump into the fray.

This tournament is in St. Cloud Minnesota. I think we are out of your region, MBuzzy. My teacher's teacher, Master Nelson, is the regional examiner. He's a chil dan and he's basically responsible for the organization's events in the seven state area around MN.
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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I don't do sparring in tournaments, for two reasons: (1) I'm asthmatic, and I don't want to spend all my energy on sparring when I'd be doing breaking about the same time, and (2) I'm more practical than point-oriented when sparring. The counters I use and set-ups I employ just don't work without at least enough extension to cause contact. I have the range to keep my distance and put my techniques exactly where I want them, but my personal style isn't fit for simple, clean point-scoring unless there's contact.

Anyway, one note about ITSDF sparring that might be interesting, don't know if anyone's mentioned it: foot attacks to the head are fine, but no hand attacks.

Tang Soo!

This type of point sparring really isn't that physically taxing. Its more about being explosive then anything else. A broken two minute round is what it is...of course perhaps your asthma where it is just BAD?
 

MBuzzy

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Thanks. That's really interesting. I knew about the first one, but the second one must be something new. I wonder what the thought behind it is?

I used to be quite good at point sparring. I won first place two years in a row...the two years I competed. But that was nine years ago. I'm curious to see how well I would do if I jump into the fray.

This tournament is in St. Cloud Minnesota. I think we are out of your region, MBuzzy. My teacher's teacher, Master Nelson, is the regional examiner. He's a chil dan and he's basically responsible for the organization's events in the seven state area around MN.

I have no idea what the logic behind this is. Now, I may be misunderstanding or we may be playing by a different set of rules....but that's how we've been doing in it in classes. If anyone knows differently, please feel free to correct me - and I'll double check in class so that I'm not giving you wrong info.

I'm sorry! I must have misread...I thought you mentioned a national tournament! I'm in Region 5 and our regional tournament is coming up in the spring. Plus, Master Nelson isn't our Regional examiner, so that answers that question! :)

It seems to me that being good at sparring is something that works across the board - but when you impose a new set of rules....who knows what will happen. I get frustrated because I will get a good hit in, but it won't count because it wasn't perfect technique or something. I tend to do some moves which are very fast, but not really SBD moves (basically, little to no hip movement just to get through and make contact).
 

JT_the_Ninja

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This type of point sparring really isn't that physically taxing. Its more about being explosive then anything else. A broken two minute round is what it is...of course perhaps your asthma where it is just BAD?

Let's put it this way: I had to do sparring for a minute straight at my recertification test the Saturday before last; almost killed me. Granted, that was vs. two people at once, but even so, my stamina isn't meant for long, protracted give-and-takes. If I need to defend myself in real life, I'm going to have to end it quickly with my would-be attacker on the ground in pain or otherwise incapacitated.
 

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I haven"t done point fighting in 7 years or more. I used to do all the regional and national tournaments in Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do from 1985 to 1994. One thing good you can say about tournament fighting is you can bring the whole family, have fun and meet people with little risk of injury. However being a Law enforcement officer along with a martial artist has taught me one thing about point fighting; real fights and point fighting are not even close to being the same. In fact I dont point fight at all now because it teaches you bad habits and poor distance. I think its a good experience for every martial arts student, and ok to do as much point fighting as you want if that is your path in the martial arts.
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Kyosa - can you check with Master Nelson to see if I have the rules for this tournament down? As you can see from some comments, there may be some changes that have happened since the last time we competed.
 

kyosa

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absolutely. I am meeting with him tomarrow and will try to get a list of the rules and post them here
 
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Makalakumu

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Another thing that I would like clarification on is the distance involved. What is appropriate for white, green, red, and black belts? Where should we all be aiming?
 

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You mean they don't use Thunderdome rules?

On the serious side, the tournaments I've entered were either Taekwondo rules or were open to all arts, and thus contact was not only allowed but encouraged.

But, I can see both sides. IF, and I do mean if, the judges are experienced enough to tell if the technique has power then I can see a light contact match. In fact the older I get the more I like the idea. But there are flies in the ointment.

The hard part is finding judges that have any real experience (belt rank does not necessarly mean they can judge such.) I've seen idiot judges before.

And then there are contestants that game the match. It's human nature for people to find the easiest way (or least painful) and they may use techniques that look strong but aren't. They look to beat the rules.

It's all going to rest on the conduct of those involved. Competent judges and honorable competitors.

Deaf
 

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