The Chambering Hand - What is it doing?

[Makalakumu]

One day John, we have to get together and train. I am sure when it comes right down to it we have more in common then we both think we do.

I, too, think that we would find that, because I strongly suspect that MGK dojangs ARE different, in many respects, from the standardized federation material in the MDK. From my conversations with my teacher, who knew Master Ferraro and from my conversations with Master Ferraro himself, I feel confident that you are all competent martial artists and self defense instructors. With that being said, I am also sure, from my conversations with you, Master Penfil, and with other instructors who are trying to bring back some of the old ways of doing things, that there are still some inconsistencies in the way the curriculum is philosophically organized and performed. Many of these inconsistencies are coming from the "traditions" that were passed down by the MDK and whose basis lies in the understanding that one can pick up from a library book on Karate.

With that being said, I want to address this statement...

All of the above things are taught in the Ho Sin Shul and Ill Soo Shik.

In education, we are constantly looking for something called "Best Practice." This is the principle that we use as an ideal for our teaching. If we are teaching our objectives with the most efficiency and efficacy, then we have acheived "Best Practice."

With that being said, do you think that the curriculum that you offer is the "best practice" to deliver your objectives to your students? For example, are the Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul that you practice the best way to get the desired results from your stated goals?

What if there really was a better way to do it out there?

Michael, these questions aren't digs. These are questions I ask myself all of the time and when I have student teachers, these are questions that I teach them to ask of themselves all of the time. This is the essence of reflective practice.

 

[robertmrivers]

Michael

I am glad to hear that you understand that the chambering hand is bringing something to the hip and that you learned it at such an early stage of your training. A question for you is what else do you do now? As a 3rd degree black belt, is this still all you know to do with the chambering hand? Maybe you are using it to pull the guy into your punch or you're even doing some sort of a takedown or joint lock. That would be great, too. But your still at the basic level.

Please remember...the material I am showing on the video and the material we are talking about IS rudamentary. For you to say that it is nothing and that you learned it as a green belt is not saying much. When I teach seminars, for example, I have to first get everyone on the same playing field before we can all as a group continue.

Some have seen that a down block is tuite (like the arm bar). Some now know that the stance is not what it once was. But, are you actively practicing/ teaching it. Are you chalking it up to "just another way of doing it" or are you internalizing that this IS what it means and it IS inherent in your art and there is much more to it. Then, are you going to realize that you need to practice this concept wholeheartedly because...this is still basic. If we are learning this at green belt...what do we do at 3rd Dan? The same thing just prettier/ faster/ with more power? I'm afraid not. And, it is not just a matter of practicing this stuff and it will come to you. If you don't put the time in, the teacher is not going to advance you. If you are fighting and resisting the teaching every step of the way, you are just not going to get it. It is at that point that the teacher smiles, and says "Great job, you now understand...you don't need me anymore..."

People are going to do one of two things. Continue trying to make sense out of ideologies that don't make sense because it is easier than becoming a student again, or actually train the way the people who created kata intended you to train. I will agree with what has been said on this thread in regards to the former statement. Unless you train the way that was intended, there is no sense in doing kata...

Regards

Rob

 

[Makalakumu]

A question for you is what else do you do now?

Rob - I think this is a fair question for you too.

BTW - here is a brief list of things that I think the chambering hand is trying to show...

1. Joint manipulations.
2. Pulling uki into a strike.
3. Using a joint lock to immobilize uke.
4. Using a joint lock to prepare uke to be struck.
5. Unbalancing uke.
6. Checking one of uke's weapons.

 

[bdparsons]

A kata is NOT going to reflect actual combative movements and help you practice them because that isn't its purpose. A kata is a syllabus. It is a memnotic device. It is a historical document that records self defense techniques.

Please tell me I'm missing something here...

Are you saying the self defense techniques present in your forms are not reflecting combative movementss you would use?

I gotta be misunderstanding your intent, help me out. Maybe it's just 'cuz it was a long day at work.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[mtabone]

Mr. Robertmrivers

When you say “There is no sense in doing kata?” do you mean not withstanding the mentally strenuous, physical challenging, discipline enhancing, and moving meditative rewards of kata or hyung?

And as far as the question you posed and Upnorth posed back to you of

A question for you is what else do you do now?

That is a great question. And beginners mind is a perfect place to start…

See I do not see these things in a limited “This is the only meaning because I have the answers pasted on from…” There are so many people with conflicting ideas with all the claims of lineage of who begat whom, on what the essence of this move it and that move is…and the reason why…because there are so many true applications for a particular move. I for one am not going to train and say I know all the answers, just as I know that the “founding fathers” (if I may use that term, if it makes any sense) of the martial arts did not have all the answers either. But many of them knew that martial arts is a living, breathing, changing creature. The reason why I study Tang Soo Do is because I believe that many of the truths of combat are there. I also believe that it takes a creative, hard training, and determined individual to learn and understand those truths. It also equally takes a great teacher to pass that needed information on. But of course like that old story about where you plant your seeds, it is only in the students that wants to grow that will, as with any endeavor.

I do not think that movements in hyung or kata have only one true objective end that can be calculated with latitude and longitude in precise minutes and seconds. And to do so is most definitely not looking at it through new eyes, and putting a limit on what one can actually get from a hyung is the antithesis of growth and the natural order of progression of martial arts. As long as a particular application works, then what other criteria does it need to fit under? If at one particular moment a punch to the face with suite me better then a joint lock or arm bar (pyung ahn o dan comes to mind here) then so be it. It comes down to effectiveness and practicality. Now as Upnorth has said, there are a myriad of things each move can do including on his list : joint manipulations, pulling the opponent into a strike, using a joint lock to immobilize opponent, using a joint lock to prepare opponent to be struck, unbalancing opponent, checking one of opponent's weapons. There are a lot of reasons why this stance is chosen and not this one. There are many reasons why we kihap when we do, or slow a move down in a hyung to draw attention to it. And as long as someone can apply that technique with a sound positive result then why is it not a good application? Is it not then valuable? I am not saying that all that is new is good and all that is old is bad. What I am saying is that there is not one truth, and one truth holder. Ever move has many layers. And any layer, as long as it works, is a valuable one. And I am not naïve enough to say I know all the layers…

Sometimes a punch is a punch, a kick is just a kick, and you got to do what needs to be done to get the job done. The hyungs will give you basic tools. I believe the self defense and one steps will give you the basic tools and concepts, and you can then do what is necessary at the given moment (granted one must train for that moment, it will not just “be there”).

But in all the truth found in all the kata’s and hyungs in all the world, all the grabs and all the self defense theories in the world, there today are two very important truths:

One: A proper awareness, and sincere manners have stopped more fights then hands and feet ever could.

Two: if you want to learn self defense for the 21st century, while you are training your secondarily important martial arts, get a gun permit, and train rigorously with your firearm.

Tang Soo!!!

Michael Tabone

 

[robertmrivers]

All

(Some) Principles for the Breaking Down of Kata

Kata is taught in no less than three phases, each phase having no less than three levels of understanding (LOU):
Phase I: Kihon
1. Block (inside), Strike (LOU)
2. Block (outside), Strike (LOU)
3. Crossing hand blocks (inside), the end of the block is the strike (LOU)
4. Crossing hand blocks (outside), the end of the block is the strike (LOU)
5. Initial front hand motion blocks (inside), the crossing hand strikes, the end of the block strikes (LOU)
6. Initial front hand motion blocks (outside), the crossing hand strikes, the end of the block strikes (LOU)
7. Evasion is the block, front side motion is strike, crossing hand is strike, end of the block is the strike (LOU)
8. Evasion is the block, the stance strikes, front side motion is strike, crossing hand is strike, end of the block is the strike (LOU)
Phase II: Tuite
Basics
1. Open hands are grabbing/ manipulating, closed hands are grabbing/pulling
2. ANY time either of my limbs come back to me, there is a pull (not in the sense of pulling something) of some type. Not just the chambering hand
3. Understanding of the 5 classic wrist manipulations
4. Centerline theory of Nikkyo
5 Compound joint principle; Tendon tightening
6. Elbow, Shoulder, and neck manipulation basics
7. Setting up the joint lock happens in the transition phase (around the crossing hands moment)
8. (Oftentimes) The joint lock is occuring between 0 and 75% of the apparent block/ strike. The last 25% is (at times) the strike to the target produced by the joint lock's sympathetic reaction
9. Lock Inside, strike inside (LOU)
10. Lock Outside, Strike Inside (LOU)
11. Lock Outside, strike outside (LOU)
12. Lock Outside, strike cross body (LOU)
13. The above relate to a single joint lock method, first typically being the elbow. It then shifts to be applied to the wrist, then the wrist accentuated by the fingers, and so on.
Phase III: Kyusho
Basics
1. Understanding of Traditional Chinese medicine cycles; promote, over-promote, destroy, diurnal; and Western medicine basics- autonomic system, carotid sinus, nerve plexus.
2. Common strike points
3. learning the resulting meridian attacks of the points. Re-learn Kihon LOU minding the meridians
4. Single strike (LOU)
5. Compound strike (LOU)
6. Compound strike in the cycle (LOU)
7. Compound 2, 3, 4, 5
8. Using Tuite to expose tsubo (kyusho points)

These are the concepts off the top of my head one needs to understand before you can really appreciate the complexity of the kata teaching matrix. The kata is the vehicle by which all of this is taught. So, hopefully, people can start to understand what I mean. The kata was NOT created and then these principles put into it. These principles as well as practical self defense in real fights even life or death combat came FIRST, the kata were designed to transmit the information. But, the information is encoded. Unless you know this material and the methods for extracting the applications from the kata, then, as I said, the kata is useless. What you see in kata...block, punch, kick and the way that they are performed does not translate to tactically sound technique. You don't see real fighters break out into a forward stance when they fight. You don't see them fight from a cat stance. If you also understand that we don't fight with our hand glued to our hip then you are a step closer to getting it right. But, if you think you are going to be able to block that jab, grab the wrist, pull it to your hip, and then punch with the other hand you might want to ask the other guy first. I am sure he is not going to let you do it. There are things that people THINK their kata is teaching them and that SOME of the techniques CAN be applied practically. This is wrong. ALL of the techniques ARE practical, most just don't know the "why" of it.

I am not the book or the author. I am just the messenger. You all have the book. But, it is in another language and you don't know who the author is. Some of us, while we don't know who all of the authors are, we have exhaustively studied the language and are willing to translate the books for you. But, you need to learn the alphabet first, then we can start making words, then sentences, and ultimately we can all appreciate the story that kata has to tell.

Please use the information as best as you can. But, it is just information. With consistant training, it will start to make more and more sense.

Regards

Rob

 

[Makalakumu]

Please tell me I'm missing something here...

Are you saying the self defense techniques present in your forms are not reflecting combative movementss you would use?

I gotta be misunderstanding your intent, help me out. Maybe it's just 'cuz it was a long day at work.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

Yes and No. Some moves are meant for direct application. Some are meant to teach you something. While some stand for other things. It's my impression that forms in Kenpo are different. As I understand it, the self defense techniques that you learn are basically just strung together?

 

[Makalakumu]

All

(Some) Principles for the Breaking Down of Kata

Kata is taught in no less than three phases, each phase having no less than three levels of understanding (LOU):
Phase I: Kihon
1. Block (inside), Strike (LOU)
2. Block (outside), Strike (LOU)
3. Crossing hand blocks (inside), the end of the block is the strike (LOU)
4. Crossing hand blocks (outside), the end of the block is the strike (LOU)
5. Initial front hand motion blocks (inside), the crossing hand strikes, the end of the block strikes (LOU)
6. Initial front hand motion blocks (outside), the crossing hand strikes, the end of the block strikes (LOU)
7. Evasion is the block, front side motion is strike, crossing hand is strike, end of the block is the strike (LOU)
8. Evasion is the block, the stance strikes, front side motion is strike, crossing hand is strike, end of the block is the strike (LOU)
Phase II: Tuite
Basics
1. Open hands are grabbing/ manipulating, closed hands are grabbing/pulling
2. ANY time either of my limbs come back to me, there is a pull (not in the sense of pulling something) of some type. Not just the chambering hand
3. Understanding of the 5 classic wrist manipulations
4. Centerline theory of Nikkyo
5 Compound joint principle; Tendon tightening
6. Elbow, Shoulder, and neck manipulation basics
7. Setting up the joint lock happens in the transition phase (around the crossing hands moment)
8. (Oftentimes) The joint lock is occuring between 0 and 75% of the apparent block/ strike. The last 25% is (at times) the strike to the target produced by the joint lock's sympathetic reaction
9. Lock Inside, strike inside (LOU)
10. Lock Outside, Strike Inside (LOU)
11. Lock Outside, strike outside (LOU)
12. Lock Outside, strike cross body (LOU)
13. The above relate to a single joint lock method, first typically being the elbow. It then shifts to be applied to the wrist, then the wrist accentuated by the fingers, and so on.
Phase III: Kyusho
Basics
1. Understanding of Traditional Chinese medicine cycles; promote, over-promote, destroy, diurnal; and Western medicine basics- autonomic system, carotid sinus, nerve plexus.
2. Common strike points
3. learning the resulting meridian attacks of the points. Re-learn Kihon LOU minding the meridians
4. Single strike (LOU)
5. Compound strike (LOU)
6. Compound strike in the cycle (LOU)
7. Compound 2, 3, 4, 5
8. Using Tuite to expose tsubo (kyusho points)

I'm amazed at how much one is able to intuit if you really put your mind to it. Thanks for this information, Rob. I've been looking for an Okinawan perspective on breaking down hyung for a long time. BTW - I'm starting a new thread about this. I think this deserves discussion on its own.