the "casual" martial artist

[tarabos]

the casual martial artist....the casual student....there's at least one in every school, probably a lot more than one. no matter what discipline you're associated with, you've probably run into at least one.

what i'm speaking of here is the person that comes into a school/dojo/dojang/etc...and is there just to get some excersise, to meet some new people perhaps, or of course to be the infamous "belt hunter."

what are your experiences with this? have you found it to detriment a school, or do you believe that they help keep it afloat? how far have you ever seen a casual student progress in rank? have you ever experienced a casual student becoming more than that and taking on a new leaf to become a serious martial artist who is really interested in being the best they can be? do you feel your place of training has too many of them...not enough of them? even just a funny story about one would be good enough for me.

this one goes out to students and teachers alike. for teachers, how do you feel they are best dealt with. by that i mean when looking at it from a business point of view, how hard would you push them...what standard would you hold them to? it's easy to say that you would hold them to the same standards as everyone else, but sometimes you have to think about the good of the school and staying in business. let's hear it, i'm interested to see both positive and not so positive views on the subject.

 

[dearnis.com]

I tend to lose them quickly. Since I am not dependant on them for income I have no urge to cater to them.

 

[khadaji]

As a teacher,
This is a problem I faced when I ran my college Fencing club. All the instruction I gave was free of charge. It got very agrivating.

People would come, and practice for about a week or two, then nolonger appear. Many would only show up to 2 sessions. It only averaed about 5 regulars. 3 of which were whole hartedly dedicated. However I would always meet these people at other places and they all said how much they like my classes, and would see me at the next one. Then if i was lucky I would see them as one session before the end of the semester.

It would have been acceptible if I had others who could help me run the club, but it was all down to me.

In the end the club now no longer exists. We ended up with only 3 members. Me included.

As the student,
I am very picky. As one who is working to enter the teaching profession, Teaching style is a large factor for me. I have looked at many places. I have some specific interest in particualar styles, but what matters is if I think its a good learning environment. I have great respect for those who are masters of their art, but I am not in to all the bowing, soluting, and calling out "Sir!" stuff. Some could easily view me as the casual student when I am realy not...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
I tend to lose them quickly. Since I am not dependant on them for income I have no urge to cater to them.

I agree with this.


Our School will tell them that if they do not wish to show up regularly and on time then maybe they should look elsewhere for training.

Of course emergencies and life happens, yet, if it happens all the time then . . .


:asian:

 

[chufeng]

As a teacher, since I don't charge anything...the students I have are fairly regular...

When I was learning from my Sifu in Iowa, he paid for my entrance into many seminars (Icouldn't afford the seminar fee) BECAUSE I was a serious student...he said that my admission was paid for by the "casual students."

I explain what I expect from any student when they first start training with me...once they start falling short of our verbal agreement, I remind them...those who are still with me took the reminders seriously; the rest have gone...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[sweeper]

as a sudent, I think what is casual and what is not deppends on how hard you personaly train.I think to some people I would be a casual student, that doesn't mean I don't take my art seriously, but justI don't train as hard as some others. But also there are some who treat class much less serious than I do, in genneral I would prefer to be one of the lesser skilled students in a given setting simply because that means I will learn the most, so when someone falls behind in skill it bugs the heck out of me having to re-teach them stuff when we are suppoed to be moving on. My attitude regarding MA basicly came out of youth soccer, basicly if you don't show up on time and you don't bother to keep your skill from atrophying or don't put in 100% effort in class, than why bother showing up?

 

[yilisifu]

I have seen several casual students turn into serious students, but not many. However, the fact that it can happen encourages me to keep them aboard.

They often do not progress as rapidly as the more serious students, and I won't hold back the rest of the class for their sakes. If they can't keep up because they fail to put in training time at home, that's their problem and I let them know it.

I keep hoping that some of them will become more serious about their training and every now and then it happens...

 

[CHUNNER]

The nature of our club and the reputation we have in our town means that I don't get casual students or belt chasers.

My main problem is students coming along thinking that they want to train hard and realistically but when they experience it first hand they don't come back.

The other problem is that of the dedicated student with absolutely no ability whatsoever. I have one student who has been training with me for two and a half years and has just this month scrapes past his first belt. It seems like every week I have to go over grade one, day one stuff with him. This is extremely frustrating for me and he must feel like an idiot as new students continually pass him in grade and ability.
He is however as keen as mustard and a really nice guy. Do you have any of these 'NO HOPERS' and how do you handle them?

 

[theletch1]

I have seen several casual students turn into serious students, but not many. However, the fact that it can happen encourages me to keep them aboard.

The one student that did a 180 at our kwoon that stands out is the father of one of the kids there. This guy kept his white belt for over a year, showed up two or three times a month and gave the general attitude that he was only there to be able to say "yeah, I'm studying kenpo." When our kwoon left our old "franchise" and went to a more traditional/hardcore curriculum it really seemed to flip a switch for the guy and he won't miss a class now. He has become one of the most dedicated students I've ever had the pleasure of working with. I think in a lot of cases it is just that the curriculum is not interesting to the individual. Leaving our old association really brought the kwoon together and gave this student a more personal stake in everything.

The other problem is that of the dedicated student with absolutely no ability whatsoever. I have one student who has been training with me for two and a half years and has just this month scrapes past his first belt. It seems like every week I have to go over grade one, day one stuff with him. This is extremely frustrating for me and he must feel like an idiot as new students continually pass him in grade and ability.

We have one of these as well. The student body as a whole tends to try to help out with this one. Sifu gives him as much personal attention as he can justify without taking away from the rest of us and the rest of us try to pick up where that stops. It's actually a great way for me to learn to teach and seeing the guy in there busting his hump week after week and being able to stay motivated through the adversity tells me that he has at least a good grip on the "spirit" side of what we are doing.

respecfully,
theletch1:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I agree with this.


Our School will tell them that if they do not wish to show up regularly and on time then maybe they should look elsewhere for training.

Of course emergencies and life happens, yet, if it happens all the time then . . .


:asian:

I'd be willing to bet that a lot in my school think that I'm a "casual
student". But I can guaran-damn-tee ya that I work out more
than anyone under black in my school (one brown belt might
prove me wrong). My wife works nights, and we have a 1 year
old child. She works 3 nights per week, and sometimes, (like
this week) they fall on 3 of the 4 days my school is open.
Location, and her needing enough sleep prevent me from getting
a baby sitter. So when I put her to bed, I go to my garage and
workout. I do every tech I know, plus bag work. I'd be willing to
bet damned good money (if there was a way to prove it) that
a LARGE portion of my school learns ONLY at school. Yet I'm the
one carrying the label of "not dedicated" or "casual student",
when those close to me call me "obsessed". I personally feel that
it shows in my execution of techniques, and I think the
instructors see it. Being labeled this way weighs heavily on my
nerves! I'm not going anywhere, but I think that label can have
heavy consequences to some students, if it's placed on someone
without really knowing.

 

[theletch1]

Kirk,
Working on your own certainly doesn't make you a casual student in my book. I think the casual student that he was refering to was the one that keeps the same belt level for ever because the only time they work their material is on the few occasions they decide to show up to the kwoon and don't bother to work their material at home. Heck we have one or two that are at every class, go through the motions expecting to be promoted after they have a certain amount of time in rank... not gonna happen. If your execution shows that you are working on your art with everything you have then you couldn't be considered a "casual" student. Hey, there are very few of us that have kids that can put everything on hold to attend every class that's available. I'm one of the lucky ones that has a sifu who is willing to take the time to put the effort into training the entire family. Some one on here has a quote at the end of their posts that says "time will either promote you or expose you." Keep on keeping on and time will prove anyone that says you are a casual student wrong.

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk
I'd be willing to bet that a lot in my school think that I'm a "casual
student". But I can guaran-damn-tee ya that I work out more
than anyone under black in my school (one brown belt might
prove me wrong). My wife works nights, and we have a 1 year
old child. She works 3 nights per week, and sometimes, (like
this week) they fall on 3 of the 4 days my school is open.
Location, and her needing enough sleep prevent me from getting
a baby sitter. So when I put her to bed, I go to my garage and
workout. I do every tech I know, plus bag work. I'd be willing to
bet damned good money (if there was a way to prove it) that
a LARGE portion of my school learns ONLY at school. Yet I'm the
one carrying the label of "not dedicated" or "casual student",
when those close to me call me "obsessed". I personally feel that
it shows in my execution of techniques, and I think the
instructors see it. Being labeled this way weighs heavily on my
nerves! I'm not going anywhere, but I think that label can have
heavy consequences to some students, if it's placed on someone
without really knowing.

Hey Kirk CHILL!

I casual student only shows up sometimes and does not practice at home. They only practice when they show up. My Definition. So, if you see someone trying and or improving then these are good signs, and I am happy to have them in our school.

Is for Labels, I was the Brain geek, that hung out with teh Jocks and Played sports with them out of season, I was also the guy that could go down to the Auto shop and help my friend work on my car. I was also the . . .

I hate labels like that, yet I understood the intent of the original question. How do other instructors handle casual students. For you see if the casual student who never practices at home cannot get by the first two moves of the first form after 3 to 4 months and you personally as the instructor have given precious class time to just this student (* Read private *) while others teach the main class, and there is no improvement and you can see they really do not care and that they are not practicing at home.

And yes, Kirk, since I do not own a professional school many would say I am a casual instructor. That may be so, yet we hold classes, I give privates and take privates as well as train with my equals and seniors. So yes your comment about perceptions could be an issue. Yet no matter what you do, someone somewhere will think something bad about you.

Have a nice Day
:asian:

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by theletch1
Kirk,
Working on your own certainly doesn't make you a casual student in my book. I think the casual student that he was refering to was the one that keeps the same belt level for ever because the only time they work their material is on the few occasions they decide to show up to the kwoon and don't bother to work their material at home. Heck we have one or two that are at every class, go through the motions expecting to be promoted after they have a certain amount of time in rank... not gonna happen. If your execution shows that you are working on your art with everything you have then you couldn't be considered a "casual" student. Hey, there are very few of us that have kids that can put everything on hold to attend every class that's available. I'm one of the lucky ones that has a sifu who is willing to take the time to put the effort into training the entire family. Some one on here has a quote at the end of their posts that says "time will either promote you or expose you." Keep on keeping on and time will prove anyone that says you are a casual student wrong.

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

when i use the term "casual," it doesn't specifically mean by belt level. myself, i have seen casual students that DO move up in rank. not neccessarily at my own school, but at a lot of seminars. then there are the casuals that just lose interest very quickly and drop out, which is what seems to be the majority here.

there have been students in my school in the past the take private lessons that would be considered casual, that have black belts. it's a shame to say it, but it happens, and they do help the school flourish i would say since they are not directly hindering the other students because they are working on their own with the instructor.

another fairly unique casual student that we have up at our school is one that takes his son with him to class so they have something to do together. he is very un-coordinated and generally non-atheletic, but the catch is that his son has down-syndrome. we do not put a whole lot of pressure on them for obvious reasons, but we still do our best to do them justice when we instruct them. will they reach black belt? it's very doubtful. however they have been awarded blue belts, honorary as they may be in a sense. they may not be what you or i would call a real blue belt in kenpo karate, but they don't mind and neither to we. sometimes there are certain cases when you make comprimises. this i think is one of them.

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I casual student only shows up sometimes and does not practice at home. They only practice when they show up.

right...there are many different definitions of what is casual and what is not. time is often a factor for people...perhaps the biggest one next to money, and they will have to go to work, go home and eat or maybe not even go home, and then go to their school to train. so by the time they get out of class, they day is pretty much gone and there's no time left for anything else really.

so if someone just doens't have the time to work out at home a lot, but they still work their *** off in class or whenever they do workout, then i would not consider them casual. basically as long as you put a heartfelt effort into you training and really strive to learn the physical and the mental side of things then you would not be considered casual in my book.

 

[tarabos]

being that i am not the head instructor at my school, i have no real final say on who is to be promoted and when. it's not my place.

are there some students that get promoted who i feel aren't ready. yes. but again, i don't feel it is my place to question. so for the assistant instructor things can be a bit different you see. there are other factors that come into play like the one i just mentioned. a little food for thought.

 

[theletch1]

Just a little bit off subject (yes, i read the thread about drifting, and I'll apologize now), but the time restrictions are indeed a big one. I have found that taking time just to visualize a technique in as close to microscopic vision as possible then run through it at speed in real time helps alot when I don't have time to actually, physically train. I drive about 450 miles a night so there is lots of time to do this. And Kirk, you're not the only one accused of being obsessed but I can live with that.

As for how the instructors deal with the casual student, I'm not qualified to give any input to that but am very interested in what my senior practitioners here have to say as I very much want to gain the proficiency in my art to instruct it.

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

 

[TKDman]

Originally posted by tarabos

what i'm speaking of here is the person that comes into a school/dojo/dojang/etc...and is there just to get some excersise, to meet some new people perhaps, or of course to be the infamous "belt hunter."

Belt Hunter, lmao thats good.

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by TKDman
Belt Hunter, lmao thats good.

someone call the "Belt Hunter"??

"G'day! Steve Iriwn here! i just was crawling around at the local mcdojo...and look what i've come across...!

the ever popular Asian World martial arts belt! look at the colors on these beauties! red, yellow, orange purple....GORGEOUS!

why if i sign up then i should be able to get all these belts in less than two years! CRIKEY!"



ok...that's enough out of old steve'o...back to the topic at hand...

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by theletch1
As for how the instructors deal with the casual student, I'm not qualified to give any input to that but am very interested in what my senior practitioners here have to say as I very much want to gain the proficiency in my art to instruct it.

ah yes...but i want to hear from students as well as instructors on the matter. after all, we're all going to be students as long as we're in the martial arts. what's it like training with a casual student? do you find it difficult? are their some advantages to working with someone who may not be as proficient or serious as you in your art? perhaps there is...perhaps they react much differently than someone who is not into the MA's as you are. they react more "naturally" to an attack or being hit, they react like someone without much training...or none at all.

this thread isn't just for instructors...

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tarabos
someone call the "Belt Hunter"??

"G'day! Steve Iriwn here! i just was crawling around at the local mcdojo...and look what i've come across...!

the ever popular Asian World martial arts belt! look at the colors on these beauties! red, yellow, orange purple....GORGEOUS!

why if i sign up then i should be able to get all these belts in less than two years! CRIKEY!"



ok...that's enough out of old steve'o...back to the topic at hand...

Beautiful comedy!!