take downs

[Manny]

Does American Kenpo have some takedowns,trows and pins to the groud? Yes I know kenpo is mainly a striking art but want to know if there are some kind of movements like in aikido, not really aikido, I mean control techs were one can break grabs or redirect punches using the bad guys force to send it to the ground and pin him to the floor?

Thanx.

manny

 

[chaos1551]

In my limited experience, kenpo is mainly a stand-up art. However, I'm learning takedowns and standing pins utilizing joint locks in some of my techniques. Emerging storm is one I just learned last night that sends an attacker to the ground so you can kick their ribs and face.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Apparently you haven't been introduced to the leg buckle.

In my experience there are all kinds of take-downs ranging from basic C-Steps to sweeps to leg buckles as mentioned above.

In order to understand how to defend against something it helps to understand how it is executed.

 

[dancingalone]

Does American Kenpo have some takedowns,trows and pins to the groud? Yes I know kenpo is mainly a striking art but want to know if there are some kind of movements like in aikido, not really aikido, I mean control techs were one can break grabs or redirect punches using the bad guys force to send it to the ground and pin him to the floor?

Thanx.

manny

Check out Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0 system for an interesting demonstration of EPAK with some elements of Brazilian Jiujitsu added.

 

[MJS]

Does American Kenpo have some takedowns,trows and pins to the groud? Yes I know kenpo is mainly a striking art but want to know if there are some kind of movements like in aikido, not really aikido, I mean control techs were one can break grabs or redirect punches using the bad guys force to send it to the ground and pin him to the floor?

Thanx.

manny

If you're looking for things such as a double leg or things that you would normally see in a BJJ class, no, you wont see that in Kenpo. You will see takedowns, as in leg sweeps, leg buckles, as CC mentioned. Jeff Speakman has added in some BJJ type moves to his Kenpo that he teaches.

 

[MattJ]

Hi Manny. Kenpo does have some takedowns. Some of them are similar to stuff you see in MMA/BJJ/Judo/Aikido, but not exactly the same. You see them in techniques like Dance of Death, The Sleeper, Tripping Arrow, Squatting Sacrifice, and in the extensions to Bowing to Buddha and Twisted Twig. Probably a few others, but I can't remember them all anymore, LOL.

Your instructor should be able to demonstrate them to you. Dedicated grapplers are going to be much better at them for the most part, though.

 

[kenpofighter]

MattJ about said it. Kenpo mostly is a stand up art. Ed Parker (creator) was a big guy and most likely did not want to roll around on the ground with his opponent. But you will find a few hip throws and leg buckles putting your opponent on the ground instead of yourself. Plus a few time finding yourself on the ground with the goal of getting back on your feet!

 

[madeku]

i wouldn't say there's as much "using the opponent's energy against him" in american kenpo as in say aikido.. more of a disrupting his balance, or finding weaknesses in his structure/stance and then exploiting it. like in traditional jujitsu. i believe Mr Parker had a black belt in Jujitsu, or Judo. can't remember. so he was somewhat familiar with ground work, even though that wasn't a main focus like today.

although one technique comes to mind, "back breaker".. sans everything after you get around the guy and grab his shoulders.. the back breaking parts of course.. not very aikido like. lol.. just throw the guy down on the ground.

 

[ackks10]

i was just going to say "back breaker" but u beat me to it, and also let me say that you can do alot of "WHAT IF'S" later on down the line.

 

[kenpofighter]

Ed Parkers did study judo and later a little boxing before he was introduced to Frank Chow and then to Frank's brother (a US Coast Guard at the time) William Chow. It was from William where Parker received more training. But kenpo does have some takedowns: falling falcons, brushing the storm, sleeper, back breaker, leap of death, destructive fans, dance of death are some of the takedowns in kenpo.

 

[ackks10]

there is no difference if you are standing up doing kenpo or laying on the ground doing kenpo,because it all works the same

 

[MJS]

there is no difference if you are standing up doing kenpo or laying on the ground doing kenpo,because it all works the same

That may be true to a point, but I think there're alot of times, when people tend, IMO, to delude themselves into thinking what they're doing on the ground will actually work. I can't help but refer back to a video clip of a high ranking Kenpoist doing some 'grappling.'

 

[seasoned]

there is no difference if you are standing up doing kenpo or laying on the ground doing kenpo,because it all works the same

I don't practice Kenpo, but my feeling are the same for the art I teach. It is all about adapting to the situation.

 

[ackks10]

That may be true to a point, but I think there're alot of times, when people tend, IMO, to delude themselves into thinking what they're doing on the ground will actually work. I can't help but refer back to a video clip of a high ranking Kenpoist doing some 'grappling.'

what i mean Mike is that if someone keeps pushing you and you tell them to stop and they don't,now the next time that person pushed you he would get a finger in the eye,,now i remember awhile back i was at this gas station (to make a long story short) the gas guy tried to cheat me and i caught it,so i said something to him,while this was going on Mom and Pop was in the car,so when i said something to him he yelled at me and tried to hit me,(the gas man not pop) he thew the punch i did a finger spear to his eye,so after that (when he could see ) he ran at me and because we had some ice and snow on the ground as he grabbed i fell to my knees, as i tried to get up i slipped again,as i was on the ground the man was on top of me, so i grabbed his hair and the tubin came off, his head went back i took my right palm and hit him under the chin, he ran away into the office, so it works both ways, sorry this was so long.

 

[MJS]

what i mean Mike is that if someone keeps pushing you and you tell them to stop and they don't,now the next time that person pushed you he would get a finger in the eye,,now i remember awhile back i was at this gas station (to make a long story short) the gas guy tried to cheat me and i caught it,so i said something to him,while this was going on Mom and Pop was in the car,so when i said something to him he yelled at me and tried to hit me,(the gas man not pop) he thew the punch i did a finger spear to his eye,so after that (when he could see ) he ran at me and because we had some ice and snow on the ground as he grabbed i fell to my knees, as i tried to get up i slipped again,as i was on the ground the man was on top of me, so i grabbed his hair and the tubin came off, his head went back i took my right palm and hit him under the chin, he ran away into the office, so it works both ways, sorry this was so long.

I think you may have mentioned this to me during one of our chats. I see what you're saying. I'll give you a call over the weekend.

Mike

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I think an interesting aspect of Kenpo that most don't look at, is that we gain control of our opponents, we cancel their Height, Width, and Depth zones and take away their ability to stay balanced...
there are several points in our techniques where we could choose to throw or take people down. AS has already been mentioned above, our traditional?? curriculum includes Buckles, and Sweeps, and trips, but not alot of throws.. I have found that learning Throws from other arts fits in very well wwith what I do in Kenpo and combine well with our Sweeps, Buckles, and Trips.

 

[K831]

I think an interesting aspect of Kenpo that most don't look at, is that we gain control of our opponents, we cancel their Height, Width, and Depth zones and take away their ability to stay balanced...
there are several points in our techniques where we could choose to throw or take people down. AS has already been mentioned above, our traditional?? curriculum includes Buckles, and Sweeps, and trips, but not alot of throws.. I have found that learning Throws from other arts fits in very well wwith what I do in Kenpo and combine well with our Sweeps, Buckles, and Trips.

Agreed. One reason (as I understand it) for utilizing a buckle over a Judo throw etc.. is that Kenpo was designed from the beginning for multiple attackers and the potential of weapons, both situations where you want your hands free and stay mobile to engage the next target, and don't want to get tied up grabbing and opponent with one or both hands to hip toss him. Rather, a buckle while striking drops him and you move seamlessly on to the next target. Hands don't get tied up, and you don't lose mobility by momentarily hoisting someone else weight.

That may be true to a point, but I think there're alot of times, when people tend, IMO, to delude themselves into thinking what they're doing on the ground will actually work. I can't help but refer back to a video clip of a high ranking Kenpoist doing some 'grappling.'

I agree. We may be able to, in many instances, say that "Kenpo will work on the ground as it does standing" and I think there is a lot of truth to that, but only if you have practiced making it work on the ground.

Also, how good was this "high ranking Kenpoist" really? I know some highly ranked Kenpoists who couldn't punch there way out of a paper bag. They are often some of the more "vocal".

 

[MattJ]

there is no difference if you are standing up doing kenpo or laying on the ground doing kenpo,because it all works the same

No sir, that is not true. Striking arts are at a huge disadvantage on the ground. Weight transfer and hip torque will be compromised, and shoulder penetration is also compromised if you are on your back. Most kenpo schools (including all the ones I trained at) did not work for position on the ground before the advent of the UFC, which is a skill in itself.

I agree that there are similarities, and some things can work just as well, but to say that there is "no difference" is wrong.

 

[K831]

No sir, that is not true. Striking arts are at a huge disadvantage on the ground. Weight transfer and hip torque will be compromised, and shoulder penetration is also compromised if you are on your back. Most kenpo schools (including all the ones I trained at) did not work for position on the ground before the advent of the UFC, which is a skill in itself.

I agree that there are similarities, and some things can work just as well, but to say that there is "no difference" is wrong.

I agree with most of this, however, I think the phrase "at a huge disadvantage" is only true if UFC type rules are in place to limit the striker.

I know from personal, real time experience that devastating strikes can be administered while that grappler is concerning himself with "working for position" or executing a submission.

I don't mean to say that a Kenpoist or any other striker shouldn't gain some ground experience or learn the basics of positioning/transitioning, however, too many go from a striking mindset on their feet, to a "grappling" mindset on the ground, forgetting all their striking tools. This is counter to good self defense.

 

[MJS]

Well, since it was asked, here is the clip:
http://ltatum.com/movies/Week22/TipOfTheWeekMedW22.html

Now, as I said, striking can be done on the ground, but depending on your position, certain things may/may not work. In the clip that I posted, sure, that'll work if the person is positioned such as we see. But....were this person to be in a true mount position, the knee strike that was shown will not work because a) you will be striking more with the thigh, not the knee, b) without the proper set-up, the person on top will not move as easy as we saw, and it should be fairly simple to recover.

The intention is there, but IMO, you can't just take a standing tech., put yourself on the ground and expect that same thing to work, without making some changes.

The goal, IMO, is not to turn the SD situation into a long grappling match. I think having an understanding of how a grappler works, is important. From there, we can adapt our Kenpo techs. accordingly. But, to just wing it....not good IMO.