Student testing the teacher

[foggymorning162]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

 

[Steel Tiger]

This situation is not uncommon. Teenage boys coming into their primacy are bound to test their various limits. The instructor in this case clearly knew this and understood. I think he handled it very well.

I have been in the situation a couple of times and dealt with it expeditiously. In both cases the boys suffered a little pain and understood they weren't quite ready to try that sort of thing. The good thing was they were keen to learn what I had done to them, they didn't just resent being bested and sulk.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Yes, I have had it happen a few times.
Every time, I reversed what the student did and made them tap. When that happens, you should make the move as quick and precise as you can. That way you "put the student back in his place." Needless to say, you don't want to hurt him, but you want to remind him who is the teacher. I hate to say that you want the student to look bad, but you do. Humility is a good thing.

AoG

 

[fnorfurfoot]

I have two boys in my class that have tried this a few times. Both are 15 and rather annoying. One has tried to screw around with me a number of times. In each occurance, I had to either lock him up or knock the wind out of him to stop his behavior. It took some time but he has finally come to realize that he shouldn't test me anymore. He jokes about his "punishments" as learning experiences.

 

[stickarts]

This happens from time to time although less and less over the years it seems. It is easily handled for me when it happens but moreso I watch closely at their reaction afterward.
Are they convinced of the technique now and took a lesson from it or does their attitude seem worse or unchanged?
Based on their reaction I decide how and when I will discuss it with them.

 

[searcher]

I have had this happen few times with teens and early 20's guys. The way to deal with it is summed up in two words: pain compliance. If you turn it around on them in short manor they will often not try it again.

 

[MBuzzy]

I was recently in a similar situation. We were teaching a Self Defense class to people from around the base. We had about 14 women and 2 men in their early 20s.

I was helping the two guys with some of the techniques and while demonstrated got some resistance. They had made comments already about things that we were teaching not working, so I explained how they worked and in what situation. When I was demonstrating on one of them, he resisted strongly at first and I just said "I promise you that these work, this is a learning environment, so please don't resist so that I can teach" the second time, he still resisted so I said "I can show you that these work if you would like, please let me teach." (the other guy wasn't resisting or commenting and seemed very eager to learn). The third time when he resisted, I made the technique work full speed and strength and made him tap....sure not to hurt him, but demonstrate that it works and resisting doesn't help.

After that, he because a very willing and eager participant of the class.

 

[jks9199]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

Yes... And that's about the best way. Every once in a while, teens need a shock to their senses to bring them back to reality. The trick is that it's got to be immediate, and it's got to be controlled, not out of anger or frustration...

 

[stabpunch]

During a demonstration of the technique it is improper but if the technique relies on a perfect scenario in which to be applied you have to question it's efficiency.

One option is to say ok you go over there and i''l apply technique x. When you make the approach apply a different technique they aren't expecting. 'hey that's not fair!'.

'i'm not going to tell an assailant what technique i'm going to apply am I?'

In terms of sparring i expect my students to try and better me, otherwise what's the point of being an instructor?

 

[Hand Sword]

Not meant to anyone's post, just the topic of the thread. It's the emotion the topic raised in me. Coming up in the inner city, and dealing with those mind sets in the dojos, it was a regular thing, if not in action, but in attitude, or both. LOL!

 

[RITFencing]

It happens. Students, especially young ones, sometimes test their limits, as was mentioned. Boys tend to do so in the manner you describe, but I've seen girls do it too. I've also seen students get more passive aggressive and manage to follow the letter of what you tell them while completely (and intentionally) mucking things up and then trying to use it to prove that you don't know what you're doing. I've seen more girls than boys go for this way, but again, I've seen both genders do it.

You just have to be calm and in control of yourself and the situation. Put a quick stop to it however you need to, let the student know that they are out of line (I often just opt to talk to them, see if that works before taking any more drastic measures.) They're kids; don't expect perfect discipline and decorum the whole time. Mistakes happen, but the ability to be calm and deal with them appropriately (not too easily or too harshly) will not only minimize the damage from these little incidents, it will let the kids know that you are in control, you are fair, you are competent, and will therefore minimize (but not eliminate) future challenges to your authority.

Remember when you were in high school? I'm sure there was one teacher who always spazzed out when kids acted up. I'm sure that teacher was later given loads to spaz out about. I'm also sure you can remember a teacher who let the kids run over them, and soon found that the kids were running the show. Can you also remember a calm but strongminded teacher who kept things on task using the minimum force necessary? I'll bet that was the teacher you respected the most, and the one who had the least discipline problems, and probably the one who did the best job of educating.

 

[RITFencing]

During a demonstration of the technique it is improper but if the technique relies on a perfect scenario in which to be applied you have to question it's efficiency.

One option is to say ok you go over there and i''l apply technique x. When you make the approach apply a different technique they aren't expecting. 'hey that's not fair!'.

Sure, with advanced people. But beginners still need to learn the basics, and in a very chaotic environment, it will be difficult to do so. I find that it is best to start things in a vacuum to let students grasp a new technique, and then slowly move to more realistic applications.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I have this happen several times in class - but it's usually from the perspective of "what if I use this defense and it makes this happen" line, rather than the "let's see what the instructor would do if I messed with him" line.

I had one guy try to play the "that'll never work, I'll just do X" game with me during explanation of a principle. After a couple of times, I invited him to display his "X" , and whatever X he chose he wasn't to tell me what it was. He wound up with a sore tailbone and bruised elbows from being taken down and trying to fight me while he was heading towards the ground instead of letting me put him down gently, so instead he got to fight the ground...and the ground won. I think that makes Ground 42, Miscreants 0.

 

[RITFencing]

I have this happen several times in class - but it's usually from the perspective of "what if I use this defense and it makes this happen" line, rather than the "let's see what the instructor would do if I messed with him" line.

I had one guy try to play the "that'll never work, I'll just do X" game with me during explanation of a principle. After a couple of times, I invited him to display his "X" , and whatever X he chose he wasn't to tell me what it was. He wound up with a sore tailbone and bruised elbows from being taken down and trying to fight me while he was heading towards the ground instead of letting me put him down gently, so instead he got to fight the ground...and the ground won. I think that makes Ground 42, Miscreants 0.

Funny.

There's a fine line here, though, because if a student isn't being a jerk, saying "What if a person does X?" can just be another way of them saying "I don't understand why this technique will work," which is a very valid concern and one that should be addressed. Personally, I love having students ask me to explain why something will or will not work, because it shows that they're listening and thinking about what I'm saying, and because it gives me a chance to fill in gaps in their knowledge right there before they try things out and get REALLY confused.

In your example, though, I think you did exactly the right thing. The distinction between "possessed of honest and valid concerns" and "jerk" can be a very small one indeed.

 

[MBuzzy]

During a demonstration of the technique it is improper but if the technique relies on a perfect scenario in which to be applied you have to question it's efficiency.

One option is to say ok you go over there and i''l apply technique x. When you make the approach apply a different technique they aren't expecting. 'hey that's not fair!'.

'i'm not going to tell an assailant what technique i'm going to apply am I?'

In terms of sparring i expect my students to try and better me, otherwise what's the point of being an instructor?

If this is the case, how do you teach? If you can't instruct in a Vacuum as RITFencing said, then there is no way to teach a student how to execute the technique and the proper way to execute it.

Even if I approach them and apply a technique they aren't expecting, how will they even know what to do? People don't come to a Martial Arts or Self Defense class for the instructors to beat on them or so that they can just experiment until they figure something out. A beginner needs to be instructed how to react in certain situations.

No technique will ever be done in a perfect scenario, but if it is rehearsed enough times in perfect scenarios and also practised in unexpected scenarios (i.e. in the Dojo/Dojang), the human body builds muscle memory and will instinctively react...doing what it needs to do in any scenario.

Now more advanced students should not be learning in a vacuum, agreed whole heartedly. they should be tested and forced to investigate new way to counter attacks. Everyone has to start somewhere.

And though I am not an instructor...I don't believe that the majority of instructors are simply doing it to improve their sparring skills.

 

[MJS]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

This happens more times than not, especially with kids. The times that it did happen, I was able to just roll with it, saying something along the lines of, "And if he does this to counter me, he opens himself up for that!" Needless to say, it usually solves the problem. I always try to stress to people, kids and adults, that the need to get the base move down first. They need to understand the concepts of that and then worry about the 'what if' phase of the technique. I would usually leave some time during a class to go over that area. Take the base move, and show some possible counters, and then follow ups from that.

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

Wow, I'm impressed with the quality of the replies here. I agree with almost everyone. As a day-job teacher of teens (yeah Hand Sword, inner city kids :ultracool), I can second the people who have said this is a teen thing--even an adolescent thing, and many experts believe for some males this can continue into their 20s.

So if it's normal for the development of 15 to early-20-somethings, we who teach should expect it. I know I'm not surprised when it happens. I just add the extra bit of pressure/leverage/make slight contact with the strike instead of stopping an inch short--whatever it takes to make the point. I've never had this fail, and I've never had a resisting student who got the 'black belt version' complain. They always smile as they pick themselves up (and their friends laugh), go back to their place in the lineup, and we continue on. For me, it's not a big deal. In fact, it's something some seem to need to develop into men and quality representatives of the Arts.

And by the way, by purple or blue belt, students know better than to try this anymore. It's usually only the newer students who are ignorant enough to challenge the instructor.

 

[MBuzzy]

And by the way, by purple or blue belt, students know better than to try this anymore. It's usually only the newer students who are ignorant enough to challenge the instructor.

By that point, most students have also gained the maturity to realize that things like this are done to teach. They have gotten over themselves and realized that it is for the betterment of everyone to learn and not try to prove anything. Plus, they've learned that they'll lose.

 

[jks9199]

There's a fine line here, though, because if a student isn't being a jerk, saying "What if a person does X?" can just be another way of them saying "I don't understand why this technique will work," which is a very valid concern and one that should be addressed. Personally, I love having students ask me to explain why something will or will not work, because it shows that they're listening and thinking about what I'm saying, and because it gives me a chance to fill in gaps in their knowledge right there before they try things out and get REALLY confused.

I agree; the line can be very fine indeed, but most of us know the difference between someone being a smartaleck or testing the teacher, someone just being a PITA, and someone honestly confused or curious. Each takes a different response. PITAs are best handled by being ignored (it's often the attention their after, anyway!). The confused need to have it explained again and the curious should be encouraged. But the smartalecks or testers... They need a different approach. It is disrespectful -- but you have to put them down with respect, not anger.

 

[kidswarrior]

By that point, most students have also gained the maturity to realize that things like this are done to teach. They have gotten over themselves and realized that it is for the betterment of everyone to learn and not try to prove anything. Plus, they've learned that they'll lose.

Yes, exactly, and this is my goal as a teacher from day one.