Stick/Club Disarms

[MJS]

Well, we have a thread or two dedicated to gun and knife disarms, so I figured we should discuss club disarms as well. This of course is not just limited to a stick....a bat, tire iron, or blunt objects of that nature can also fall into this category.

The nature of the attack can vary from overhead, forehand and backhand attacks.

So....how do you all deal with these types of attacks? Any bread and butter moves that you feel best suit your defense?

Edit:*For clarification, for the sake of this thread, I'm referring to empty hand vs. stick, not stick vs. stick*

 

[MJS]

For myself, I primarily fall back on the disarms I know from Kenpo as well as Arnis. Seeing that the end of the stick is where the majority of the power is coming from, I like to move in. Yes, as with the other weapons in the other threads, I like to gain control of the club hand/arm as well.

IMO, there is so much that can be done. Limb destruction, passing to a break and/or lock, takedown, transitioning the stick vs. stick disarms to empty hand, are just a few things that come to mind that I like to do.

 

[Andrew Green]

I find that if you want to disarm a stick you are far better off initiating rather then trying to do it off the opponents attack. If they are following through or attacking in combination like they should be the stick is very hard to trap and there is a good chance you will get clobbered trying. If I initiate the attack I can predict the block a little better in terms of where the stick will be and when.

But the best disarm is hitting the hand / wrist really hard, disarms are not the most reliable technique and can easily leave you exposed.

 

[MJS]

I find that if you want to disarm a stick you are far better off initiating rather then trying to do it off the opponents attack. If they are following through or attacking in combination like they should be the stick is very hard to trap and there is a good chance you will get clobbered trying. If I initiate the attack I can predict the block a little better in terms of where the stick will be and when.

But the best disarm is hitting the hand / wrist really hard, disarms are not the most reliable technique and can easily leave you exposed.

Once the attack is apparent, I like moving in. Moving in, with a simultaneous block/jam/strike during the initial entry off the attack, seems to work well for me.

 

[jarrod]

i train weapon disarms fairly infrequently, so when i do practice them, i tend to focus on principles rather than techniques. those principles are

1) control the weapon

2) fight like hell

i have no real world experience with weapons, but in live training it seems to go relatively well.

jf

 

[MJS]

i train weapon disarms fairly infrequently, so when i do practice them, i tend to focus on principles rather than techniques. those principles are

1) control the weapon

2) fight like hell

i have no real world experience with weapons, but in live training it seems to go relatively well.

jf

Couldn't agree more with the underlined part. The techs. that we learn, IMHO, give us a foundation to build from. My main initial concern is not getting hit. What happens after that is instinct and flow. Like I said, there is so much to pick from.

 

[geezer]

i train weapon disarms fairly infrequently, so when i do practice them, i tend to focus on principles rather than techniques. those principles are
1) control the weapon
2) fight like hell
i have no real world experience with weapons, but in live training it seems to go relatively well.
jf

"Live training?" I'm not sure what that means.

Bare stick and controlled speed and force? I would suggest either a padded stick, ... or bare rattan with gloves and headgear. Then test it against hard force with a stubborn, non-compliant partner who won't let go of his stick unless you rip it from his unyielding hand... while he's punching the living hell out of you with the other. Then, if your techniques work, carefully consider the how it would go with a heavy, bare stick, no headgear, and someone hell bent on busting your skull.

At least one prominent Escrima master I know insists that, under these circumstances, disarms are unreliable. His advice? Forget the disarm and just clobber the guy.

 

[MJS]

"Live training?" I'm not sure what that means.

Bare stick and controlled speed and force? I would suggest either a padded stick, ... or bare rattan with gloves and headgear. Then test it against hard force with a stubborn, non-compliant partner who won't let go of his stick unless you rip it from his unyielding hand... while he's punching the living hell out of you with the other. Then, if your techniques work, carefully consider the how it would go with a heavy, bare stick, no headgear, and someone hell bent on busting your skull.

Yes, the 'live' training is just as you describe. Its amazing what we can/can't pull off, when the stick is really moving. I've been on the receiving end of more than a few welts from a padded stick.

At least one prominent Escrima master I know insists that, under these circumstances, disarms are unreliable. His advice? Forget the disarm and just clobber the guy.

My apologies...for clarification, I'm talking about empty hand vs. weapon defense, not stick vs. stick. However, I do agree with you...when sparring or just going thru the techs., stick vs. stick, at a faster, harder pace, yes, the disarms go out the window. The ideas are still there, however, to actually pull one off is pretty darn difficult.

 

[arnisador]

I like to move in as soon as it can be done safely--way in--then use modified Modern Arnis disarms if possible, or grapple him with the stick pinned to his body if a messy technique is all I can manage.

Once I get my hand on that stick, my mental philosophy is that it's my stick, and he's trying to disarm me. I change my mindset to weapon retention!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My tactic is to either charge in before the weapon has accellerated, but after the attack is initiated, or to dodge the attack and then move in as the weapon completes its arc.

Then get a hold of the weapon above and below their grip, circle it clockwise a half turn and then bring it down abruptly. This will either break the wrist and get it out of their hand, or just get it out of their hand. From there, a sharp cut/strike diagonally from inside to outside, which should strike the now open head in the temple.

I have practiced this one for several years and have used it in realtime against an actual attacker who was armed with a baseball bat.

Daniel

 

[Andrew Green]

My apologies...for clarification, I'm talking about empty hand vs. weapon defense, not stick vs. stick. However, I do agree with you...when sparring or just going thru the techs., stick vs. stick, at a faster, harder pace, yes, the disarms go out the window. The ideas are still there, however, to actually pull one off is pretty darn difficult.

Empty hand vs stick I'd go with the run for it, it's going to work out badly. Otherwise the only thing we've had any success at all with is rushing and fighting from a clinch or takedown.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Empty Handed:

I tend to initiate and close the gap and control the stick and then disarm simultaneously while striking and disrupting their balance. However if caught after they have initiated their strike I try to evade and stay at a distance until given the opportunity to close/clinch and disarm.

Still if engaged out in the world and if I had a chance to run that would be the first course of action. However if the family was present or it was work related then business must be taken care of efficiently.

If I had a stick/blade etc. then I would try to pick them apart from distance if possible. Still running would be the first option!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

While this is a stick on stick sparring session I am in just a fencing helmet and elbow pads. You can see the gap closed around the 27th or so second and the disarm immediately afterwards. This would be a similar quick disarm against a stick weilding opponent. This is a disarm that happens for me almost every time I spar. Close the gap, control, strip/disarm and then use it against them. Really not that much of a difference then if empty handed other than arm placement when going in.

[yt]BUW38ViV8aw&feature=channel_page[/yt]

 

[MJS]

As with any weapon encounter, for myself, of course, the obvious is trying to get the heck away from the person. If there was something available to use to aid in my defense, as Brian said, picking at them from a distance is another option. And then of course emtpy handed.

For me, the inward swing, especially when done fast, is always a bit tricky to get in on. If they follow thru with a backhand strike, that would be easier to enter on.

If I can catch them on the initial swing, as they're drawing back, that IMO would be the time to do something. But as I said, if its not possible, wait until the best option presents itself.

 

[arnisador]

At least one prominent Escrima master I know insists that, under these circumstances, disarms are unreliable. His advice? Forget the disarm and just clobber the guy.

Stick vs. stick? Absolutely! Empty hand vs. stick? That's a bit different. You must get in of you can't get away, and then once you do have a choice between controlling the stick and fighting with your other hand (if available) and legs, or going for the stick and making it you who has the advantage in his favour.

 

[BLACK LION]

I know the topic clearly states "disarms" but it is a relative subject to the knife/gun threads posted recently so I will chime in even though my response is the same as with the other tools...



Ahhhhhh the stick... mans original killing utensil.

Chances are I am going to get whacked with it and its safe to assume so just as with the knife and gun encounter.
My focus, as with the knife or the gun is serial injury to non-functionality and not the tool itself...
They cant use the stick if they cant use thier brain or body.

The stick will be moving faster than I can do anything about however his body will be moving at the same rate as me. If I watch the tool and try to counter it I could get beat to a pulp with it. If I watch the threat, who will be moving much slower than the stick and pick targets and get in there an wreck them the whole stick problem is moot becuase of the injury.


It takes a brain and a nody to use..destroy either and problem is solved.

 

[MJS]

I know the topic clearly states "disarms" but it is a relative subject to the knife/gun threads posted recently so I will chime in even though my response is the same as with the other tools...



Ahhhhhh the stick... mans original killing utensil.

Chances are I am going to get whacked with it and its safe to assume so just as with the knife and gun encounter.
My focus, as with the knife or the gun is serial injury to non-functionality and not the tool itself...
They cant use the stick if they cant use thier brain or body.

Well, lets look at the 3 weapons. If I were to take a shot to the chest, a stab or slash to the chest or a hit across the chest with the stick, the one thats probably going to cause the least amount of injury is going to be the stick. Still, regardless of the injury that each of the weapons cause, I want to minimize as much damage as possible.

I see what you're saying...the object itself is harmless, its the person using it that will cause you the harm. While that may be the case, I dont want to disregard the weapon all together. As I have said before, there is nothing that says we cant control the weapon, while at the same time, attacking the person using it. Don't mistake the word 'control' to mean that is all I'm focusing on. I'm not going to just latch onto the stick and try to pull it from the guys hands. No, I'm going to control that stick, control him, and strike.

The stick will be moving faster than I can do anything about however his body will be moving at the same rate as me. If I watch the tool and try to counter it I could get beat to a pulp with it. If I watch the threat, who will be moving much slower than the stick and pick targets and get in there an wreck them the whole stick problem is moot becuase of the injury.

The tip of the stick is where the majoirty of power is going to be. Once I get inside, I'm in a good position to begin my defense.

Both of our goals are to defend ourselves and take the person out. The major difference is that I favor to control and strike, as Brian said in his post, while you prefer to disregard the weapon and just work for attacking the person. Another difference is that by controlling, I'm taking that weapon out of play. Not controlling, still leaves him wide open to continue to hit me.

 

[K-man]

Well, lets look at the 3 weapons. If I were to take a shot to the chest, a stab or slash to the chest or a hit across the chest with the stick, the one thats probably going to cause the least amount of injury is going to be the stick. Still, regardless of the injury that each of the weapons cause, I want to minimize as much damage as possible.

I see what you're saying...the object itself is harmless, its the person using it that will cause you the harm. While that may be the case, I dont want to disregard the weapon all together. As I have said before, there is nothing that says we cant control the weapon, while at the same time, attacking the person using it. Don't mistake the word 'control' to mean that is all I'm focusing on. I'm not going to just latch onto the stick and try to pull it from the guys hands. No, I'm going to control that stick, control him, and strike.



The tip of the stick is where the majoirty of power is going to be. Once I get inside, I'm in a good position to begin my defense.

Both of our goals are to defend ourselves and take the person out. The major difference is that I favor to control and strike, as Brian said in his post, while you prefer to disregard the weapon and just work for attacking the person. Another difference is that by controlling, I'm taking that weapon out of play. Not controlling, still leaves him wide open to continue to hit me.

I think I'm on the same page as Black Lion but not much different from MJS. I was taught to avoid the strike and hit at least three times to neutralise the threat before worrying about the disarm. This is not to ignore the weapon, just don't focus on it until the major danger has passed. If you get hung up on the weapon a stronger opponent is likely to trash you. If you are able to evade the initial attack and in turn attack the attacker, you don't need to 'control' the weapon in the sense that it is still available to the attacker but he really can't use it because he is pre-occupied with his own safety. Guns are a little different but the process is similar. In that instance I would prefer to have one hand on the weapon while attacking the person. In this situation you are not 'controlling' the gun but neither is the attacker. :asian:

 

[MJS]

I think I'm on the same page as Black Lion but not much different from MJS. I was taught to avoid the strike and hit at least three times to neutralise the threat before worrying about the disarm. This is not to ignore the weapon, just don't focus on it until the major danger has passed. If you get hung up on the weapon a stronger opponent is likely to trash you. If you are able to evade the initial attack and in turn attack the attacker, you don't need to 'control' the weapon in the sense that it is still available to the attacker but he really can't use it because he is pre-occupied with his own safety. Guns are a little different but the process is similar. In that instance I would prefer to have one hand on the weapon while attacking the person. In this situation you are not 'controlling' the gun but neither is the attacker. :asian:

Likewise, I am not worrying about the disarm either until after I've fired off shots. The key word that you used here, was 'if' you are able to avoid the initial strike. I agree with that for the most part. For example, it may be best to avoid the inward strike and enter on the backhand. I still can't help but think that when people see the word 'control' they think that means that all of the attention is on the weapon, the sole purpose to hang on and not let the badguy take it back. I still feel that we can control and counter strike. That, IMO, is not putting sole focus on the weapon, but also on countering. I'm short on time this morning, but I wanted to post a few things that I came across.

Watch this clip from 1min on. We see a club attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xl3VadJfUI&feature=channel_page

At 45sec in, we see another club attack. Notice how the person is moving in, controlling and firing off shots right away. Same clip, about a min. in, we see another.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDHf6J_CcPo&feature=channel_page

Another clip, all club attacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuVjSJyuSQA&feature=channel_page

2min into this clip, we see a few club and knife defenses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yBue68Ilyw&feature=channel_page

Here is a slow motion clip. We see a simultaneous block/counter shots.

Another Kajukenbo club defense.

As I've said before, anyone is free to do what they want. I"ve grown up in my training, with control stressed all the time. I suppose, in the end, what matters, is that we go home safe.

Thanks for your post K-Man.:supcool:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ahhhhhh the stick... mans original killing utensil.

And still legal to carry in all fifty states.

Chances are I am going to get whacked with it and its safe to assume so just as with the knife and gun encounter.
My focus, as with the knife or the gun is serial injury to non-functionality and not the tool itself...
They cant use the stick if they cant use thier brain or body.

This is true, though I fall between you and MJS on this.

I am very disinclined to maintain the notion that I will most likely get whacked. It is an inherent risk and one that I train to minimize to the greatest degree possible. Unlike the knife and the gun, I have a much better chance of negating that risk against a single stick wielding opponent. Against multiple stick (or crowbar or baseball bat) wielding opponents, I am inclined to beat a hasty retreat. If that is not possible, go for a quick disarm on one of them and use my other techniques to keep the others off of me long enough to then arm myself. If nothing else, having an object would be helpful for parries.

Being a kendoka, I am very familiar with sticks roughly the same length as a baseball bat. As a nito ryu practitioner, I am also familiar with the use of a stick the size of a nightstick. We also train regularly to deal with stick wielding foes while ourselves unarmed.

I had mentioned my wrist break/disarm earlier, but that can also be modified to a leg sweep/disarm as well, keeping you up and the attacker on the ground, perhaps with your foot in his trachea.

The stick will be moving faster than I can do anything about however his body will be moving at the same rate as me. If I watch the tool and try to counter it I could get beat to a pulp with it. If I watch the threat, who will be moving much slower than the stick and pick targets and get in there an wreck them the whole stick problem is moot becuase of the injury.

You are spot on here. One of the most difficult things for people unfamiliar with armed combat is to not focus all of their attention on the weapon.

It takes a brain and a body to use..destroy either and problem is solved.

I do not remember which boxer it was that said this, though I believe that it was Joe Frazier. "Kill the body and you kill the head." Of course the opposite is, as you well know, equally true.

Daniel