stepping forward in forms

[sadantkd]

I'm noticing a lot of schools teaching an in and out motion when steping forward like from one apkubi to another in poomsae lately. Is this something that Kukkiwon teaches? I remember one time about 20 years or so ago, I picked that up from watching some Karate people do it because I thought it looked neat.

I did it at a very senior Grand Master's school we were visiting, and he beat the heck out of my legs with a kendo sword while telling me that in Taekwondo, we step straight forward. I was a second degree black belt at the time and had always been taught to step straight forward, but I just thought that looked nicer.

 

[dancingalone]

Some people call it C-stepping or hourglass stepping. The reason for it is to learn how to pull the legs tightly through the center line using the inner thigh muscles. The advantage is that you learn how to move in a stable fashion off the front leg also, rather than just using a rear leg push as is common taught.

There are also some ramifications for learning how to root if your style teaches the concept as well as closing off your groin as a target. Some believe it is a precursor exercise to studying leg entanglements and sweeps.

 

[ChrisJ]

I don't see it as much as I used to. I think another advantage of it from WTF Poomsae perspective was helping to keep the head level during the form. Stepping straight forward in a front stance, beginners' heads tend to bob up and down during the step. This in-to-out motion served as a way to help correct this.

-Chris

 

[terryl965]

It was used alot back in the older days, I still teach it that way and I will keep teaching it. What I find funny is when older G.M.'s act like this was not they way and try to pretend it never was. I know today they prefer the straight ahead motion but the benefits one learns from the "C" motion is a lifetime for the ever perfectinsate at poomsae's. Remember competition poomsae and realistic poomsae are two different childern all together. I would keep doing it both ways just for the benefit it will have on your training.

 

[bluekey88]

Currently, KKW forms have no c-step...just straight line movements. However, I learned my forms with the c-step. i also saw this back in my Goju days, and before that my wing chun days.

I prefer the c-step as I like the evasive feel of the movement. I can move forward, while gettinbg in and araound my opponents legs ...BUT I've leartned that, like all other techniques, there is a time and a place for it. It's good to know it and be able to turn it on or off in your training as the circumstances dictate.

Peace,
Erik

 

[spinny]

Personally, crescent steps are a pet peeve of mine...deep breath... but I'll try to refrain from sounding snippy.

My Grandmaster teaches a straight step. But, as we're in a university, we get a lot of transfer students or people with previous experience in other styles. And they come loaded with "bad"/strange/unusual (to us) habits. Crescent steps are one of the obvious ones.

I picked that up from watching some Karate people do it because I thought it looked neat.

Yeah...A lot of people think it looks neat. Some of the transfers have influenced our students ("Hey! Look what that black belt is doing. Cool! I'm gonna do it like that.") Then I have to (verbally) thwack them.

The reason for it is to learn how to pull the legs tightly through the center line using the inner thigh muscles. The advantage is that you learn how to move in a stable fashion off the front leg also, rather than just using a rear leg push as is common taught.

Interesting. I wish you could illustrate this. Maybe a video?

I don't see it as much as I used to. I think another advantage of it from WTF Poomsae perspective was helping to keep the head level during the form. Stepping straight forward in a front stance, beginners' heads tend to bob up and down during the step. This in-to-out motion served as a way to help correct this.

Really? I've never seen evidence of it correcting head-bobbing. Most the crescent-stepping-transfer students seem to have a horrible case of head-bobbing.


I guess I don't need to be replying to every post...but crescent stepping is something I just don't get. Personally, I think it's inefficient and once the habit is formed it's hella hard to break.

 

[dancingalone]

Interesting. I wish you could illustrate this. Maybe a video?

It's not something that would be obvious in a video. We can accept that we have a variety of muscle groups, yes? Some are more commonly used by others in ordinary movements like walking or running. The circle stepping simply trains a different set of muscles to perform certain motions. To what end?

Well the answer depends on your style. Moving from inside your legs probably handicaps yourself from a speed and stride length perspective, but it's absolutely a more stable platform to work from. In Goju-ryu karate, this is more valued than speed or length hence the fundamental walking drill present in every kata, particularly sanchin.

Keep in mind this is a DRILL. At some point of your studies, the angle of your muscular and frame presentation should be automatic even if the c-stepping is not even noticeable.

Personally, I think it's inefficient and once the habit is formed it's hella hard to break.

If your system has no reasons to c-step, then you shouldn't. It shouldn't be about looks. Many fighting systems from China and Okinawa do teach it and they have sound reasons for doing so.

 

[ChrisJ]

Really? I've never seen evidence of it correcting head-bobbing. Most the crescent-stepping-transfer students seem to have a horrible case of head-bobbing.

My point here was geared towards new students, e.g. brand new white belts. Transfer students may have their own stylistic preferences/differences. However, if you tell some one brand new to the art to keep their head level while walking in a front stance, they do better with the C step than with a straight step.

After training Taekwondo for a long time, it is difficult to simulate the feeling of having the untrained leg muscles where you would notice the difference. However, try this:
1. Get into a very deep, exagerated front stance
2. Do a straight step at ~1/4 speed (while keeping head level of course)
3. Do a crescent step at ~1/4 speed

I expect that you'd find the crescent step to be much easier.

As I said, I don't see the crescent steps as much anymore. I no longer practice them myself. But in the past, I have observed the crescent steps helping beginners to keep their heads level.

-Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Whether you should do "C Shape" or curved line stepping may relate to other technical parameters of your style.

For most stepping i.e. walking / front to walking / front stance General Chois' text stipulates "Curved Line Stepping". The reason while not stated works like this. A basic ready stance which is similar to just a natural stance has the outside edge of the feet as wide as your shoulders. A walking stance is slighhty wider with the center line of the feet being shoulder width. So, when stepping forward when your feet are next to each other, the position will go from the wider stance thru the narrower stance and wider again. To step straight from the wider stance to the wider stance would not be natural or balanced.

If your system has a narrower front or walking stance the need for a curved line step would be less.

Most natural walking will also need to have the foot in motion move closer and then further as the center of gravity needs to shift from between the feet toward the support leg and then back to between the feet.

Some other specific curved line stepping helps use the hips and shoulders to generate power in hand techniques.

 

[spinny]

It's not something that would be obvious in a video. We can accept that we have a variety of muscle groups, yes?

Yes :wink1:

Some are more commonly used by others in ordinary movements like walking or running. The circle stepping simply trains a different set of muscles to perform certain motions. To what end?

Well the answer depends on your style. Moving from inside your legs probably handicaps yourself from a speed and stride length perspective, but it's absolutely a more stable platform to work from. In Goju-ryu karate, this is more valued than speed or length hence the fundamental walking drill present in every kata, particularly sanchin.

OK. But I thought we were talking about taekwondo.
Not that two arts won't have certain elements that overlap, or that they have nothing to do with one another or that one is better than the other. But they are different.

 

[dancingalone]

OK. But I thought we were talking about taekwondo.
Not that two arts won't have certain elements that overlap, or that they have nothing to do with one another or that one is better than the other. But they are different.

Yep, goju-ryu karate is different from TKD. I believe the OP opened the floor for a discussion of why different arts do it when he mentioned he observed the practice in karate and liked it.

As I said, if your system has no underlying doctrine for using a c-step, there's no reason to bolt on the movement. Sounds like there are a number of TKD people who do use the movement to some degree however. In their case, an explanation of why another style has the same practice might be illuminating.

 

[Blindside]

I guess I don't need to be replying to every post...but crescent stepping is something I just don't get. Personally, I think it's inefficient and once the habit is formed it's hella hard to break.

C-steps teach a number of things, entering on the angle to penetrate to the centerline for striking or entries to leg buckles, sweeps, and takedowns for the most obvious examples. If your art doesn't do these things it probably isn't necessary for you to learn the footwork.

And yes, those habits SHOULD be hella hard to break.

 

[spinny]

I feel like my personal feelings came out a little much and sidetracked the thread. I apologize. I didn't intend to be such an antagonist. I think I had a poor opinion of crescent steps because
1. it went against what I was taught, and
2. the people I've met who did them couldn't explain to me why they did them apart from "it's just the way it is." and I think they were put off when they had to change their habits, and often the people who have a lot to change just end up quitting - which is sad and bothers me.

I'm very glad to have had the opportunity to learn the pros and cons of this particular style of front stance. I'm sorry that something in my mind wanted to turn this thread into a debate rather than simply sharing ideas. My bad. I'm gonna back off now.

:asian:

 

[Blindside]

I feel like my personal feelings came out a little much and sidetracked the thread. I apologize. I didn't intend to be such an antagonist. I think I had a poor opinion of crescent steps because
1. it went against what I was taught, and
2. the people I've met who did them couldn't explain to me why they did them apart from "it's just the way it is." and I think they were put off when they had to change their habits, and often the people who have a lot to change just end up quitting - which is sad and bothers me.

I'm very glad to have had the opportunity to learn the pros and cons of this particular style of front stance. I'm sorry that something in my mind wanted to turn this thread into a debate rather than simply sharing ideas. My bad. I'm gonna back off now.

:asian:

I wouldn't worry about it, I think many karateka don't know why they do the c-step. I didn't, it just took several years of kenpo and kali training to figure it out. Hopefully I would have learned it if I had continued my studies in Isshin-ryu and Goju-ryu, but from what I saw elsewhere I can now see more of what is available through the karate training curriculums.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I wouldn't worry about it, I think many karateka don't know why they do the c-step. .

Like how many know why they rotate their fist as they punch?

 

[dancingalone]

Like how many know why they rotate their fist as they punch?

Seriously? I would be flabbergasted if a student didn't know that. That's Day 1 knowledge.

 

[dortiz]

I fond that C-stepping creates more thought on the "gap" or timing in between steps. This may be just me but from this habit I believe its much easier to adjust footwork as you are training to move and adjust as you step versus just stepping forward. It engages more sensory and makes you aware of the process versus auto motor skills. I find when taught this folks tend to adjust quicker to moving off lines and re adjusting to attacks.

Hope this makes sense??

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
Like how many know why they rotate their fist as they punch?

Seriously? I would be flabbergasted if a student didn't know that. That's Day 1 knowledge. <<

Well, I for one do not spend any time on this for kids class, but I think it becomes important for older and more experienced students. When I start going into the "Why's" with kids their eyes tend to glaze over after about 10 seconds.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Like how many know why they rotate their fist as they punch?

When is the issue. LOL
Sean

 

[Cirdan]

This way of stepping foreward was discarded where I train. We do however turn the foot of the lead leg 45 degrees outwards (heel stays in the same place) just as we move which may give some similar results. Don`t know really since I never did the c-step, or moon-step as I believe it was known here.