Something From The Ancients

[Steel Tiger]

I have recently been closely examining one of my forms and have now taken to reading some translations I have of bagua concepts. I thought I might share a few with you all to give you an idea of where we bagua people are coming from and to see what you think of the concepts.

Baguazhang, walking is first, withdraw and immediately release, go and immediately return, change and vary insubstantial and substantial in the stepping. Walk like the wind, stand as if nailed, the changes of techniques for arcing, swaying, boring and turning are clear.

These are the first two lines of something called the "Total Song of Baguazhang". It paints a pretty good picture of the constant movement and change essential to the art.

The palms are applied with the coordination of the Nine Palaces Stepping. Left and right turning the body, the variations are refined. Emitting hands either following or against (ie reversing) according to the body's movement. Falling stepping, open and close, four extremities are capable. When the legs kick, the opponent does not see the legs. When the palms attack, the opponent does not know my intention. When I turn my body, the postures are not defined. Four doors and eight legs, their variation have no limit

This is one verse of something called "Baguazhang Fighter's Secret Song". This speaks of coordination and mystery of intent. Again I think it gives a good idea of essential bagua.

What do you think? Does it raise any questions? Does it resonate with any of the concepts you use for yourself?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very nice, I would agree, based on my very limited exposure to Bagua. Also it is similar to things I have read concerning both Taiji and Xingyi. This gives me an idea.

This might be a good place to post some of those that is if it is ok with you to post similar things form other CMA styles to compare and contrast?

 

[Steel Tiger]

Go for it!

I'm a big fan of compare and contrast!

I'd like to see some other conceptual approaches.

There are actually like 90 of these songs. Some are long and some are really short. The long ones tend to encompass the whole art while the short ones are about specifics like palms or kicks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Baguazhang, walking is first, withdraw and immediately release, go and immediately return, change and vary insubstantial and substantial in the stepping. Walk like the wind, stand as if nailed, the changes of techniques for arcing, swaying, boring and turning are clear.

These are the first two lines of something called the "Total Song of Baguazhang". It paints a pretty good picture of the constant movement and change essential to the art.

The palms are applied with the coordination of the Nine Palaces Stepping. Left and right turning the body, the variations are refined. Emitting hands either following or against (ie reversing) according to the body's movement. Falling stepping, open and close, four extremities are capable. When the legs kick, the opponent does not see the legs. When the palms attack, the opponent does not know my intention. When I turn my body, the postures are not defined. Four doors and eight legs, their variation have no limit

This is one verse of something called "Baguazhang Fighter's Secret Song". This speaks of coordination and mystery of intent. Again I think it gives a good idea of essential bagua.

What do you think? Does it raise any questions? Does it resonate with any of the concepts you use for yourself?

I think both of these are fairly close in intent to the following songs from Taijiquan, and writings form Xingyiquan and surprisingly Sanda.

(from Tung Ying Jie's Red book)

Excerpt from the song of push hands

Set a trap and draw your opponent in
To contract is to prepare for Fa
Use stick, continuous, stick to follow without
Losing your center
When getting punched or kicked,
dodge and jump fast as a sparrow

Song of Application

Lightness, sensitivity and agility
Are to be understood
Understand and apply with precision
Learn the concept of using four ounces
To deflect a thousand pounds
Open, close and qi movement start from stillness

Both speak of the important of listening, sticking and coordination of movement in Taiji

Xingyiquan is big on coordination of movement

Part of the Essential points of Xingyi
The left hand harmonizes with the right foot
The left elbow harmonizes with the right knee
The left shoulder harmonizes with the right hip
And conversely so on the right side

And it is from this coordination you generate power for attack, or defense... which in Xingyiquan is pretty much the same thing.

And for something from the not so Ancients..kinda; I am finding that in Sanda they are saying pretty much the same stuff just simplifying it and making it a bit easier to understand. Which I guess makes sense because Sanda is pretty much Traditional CMA with a lot of the harder to understand stuff removed to make it easier, and quicker, to understand for fighting

From Dr Mizhou Hui

Whole body power should be used for any offensive movement, such as a punch or kick. This power can be generated by using your full body weight and your momentum. Remember that you should always be prepared to use your whole body power at any time during any movement. Moreover, using a safe angle with proper blocking when closing with your opponent is important for the use of full body power.

And I feel this, also from Dr Mizhou Hui

Pretending to focus your attention on his left, you suddenly attack his right

is Kind of the Readers Digest version (aka the expurgated version) of this

The palms are applied with the coordination of the Nine Palaces Stepping....

But it, like Sanda, is just being more direct IMO

I am not all that surprised to find the similarities between Baguazhang, Taijiquan and Xingyiquan, but they are very interesting to look at together to see the similarities as well as the differences. It is showing the different approaches to basically the same concepts that make CMA really cool in my opinion

I was and continue to be rather surprised at the similarities I am seeing between TCMA and Sanda however. Sanda is very different in its approach to training but since it’s root is CMA it still has a connection to other CMA styles that are quite interesting as well.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I'm not all that surprised that Sanda uses many of the concepts developed in the internal arts. From a CMA perspective, they are the arts in which the most thought about concepts, principles and strategy have been put.

I found the xingyi song interesting. Compare to this:

When striking the opponent, the upper arms must be used as the root of jin. The upper arms on the shoulder area should not extend completely. That means if you desire to advance, step forward with front leg. If you step forward with the rear leg, then the spiritual effort is in vain.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not all that surprised that Sanda uses many of the concepts developed in the internal arts. From a CMA perspective, they are the arts in which the most thought about concepts, principles and strategy have been put.

I found the xingyi song interesting. Compare to this:

That is Xingyi

The two legs and arms seem straight but are not straight; seem bent but are not bent
There is yin and there is yang, but the central qi is stable

 

[Xue Sheng]

I knew there was another I read that talked about advancing, I had to go look for this sorry for 2 posts in a row

Attributed to Yueh Fei

Yi is threaded throughout the entire body, and the movements on the stepping. the stepping is not forward, then the Yi is in vain and cannot do anything. Therefore, the stepping important in advancing. Then, when attacking the left, the right must be advanced, and when attacking the right, the left must be advanced. These are the seven advancings. They are not what is called the advancing in touching the ground. To conclude their importance, before advancing, the entire body may not have the Yi connection and be related to each other, once talking about advancing, then the entire body does not have the appearance of delaying and hesitation. In addition to the above four advances

There is a song of Santi Shi I have heard about but not read yet, it is attributed to Henan style and I did Hebei style but I do plan on picking up the book that has it soon.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Now what Yueh Fei has to say brought to mind a few other things of similar idea.

Before moving the ending, first move the root. Even if hands are fast, still is not as speedy as moving with half stepping. Advancing for entering or withdrawing for retreating, use only half stepping to control the opponent and defend against the attacks with a peaceful spirit.

Does that sound familiar?

When strike comes and I strike back, I must be first. If smashing to my right, I change my steps and use the left hand to hand the attack. When the chopping is coming, I flatten my elbow and press him horizontally. If he bumps me, then I use both hands to move a circle.

Point forward, strike backward. Point left, strike right. Encounter "closing," must strike. Encounter "sideways," must strike. Encounter "straight," must strike diagonally. Encounter "retreating," must advance. There is no definite posture of walking or striking, this is the real shape of Bagua art.

When Yueh Fei mentions to strike left the right must be advanced it reminded me of these songs. Advance right to strike left is moving diagonally.


By the way, many of these songs are attributed to Dong Hai Chuan. There are 36 for beginners and 48 for advanced students. And then there is a pile of other stuff from various masters.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry it was a holiday here yesterday and I did not want to make a quick post here so I waited for today.

Half step is a big part of Xingyiquan stepping.

But again I am reminded of Sanda, particularly your quote

When strike comes and I strike back, I must be first.

Sanda Principals

You should always start your attack or move into a counterattack when your opponent is already committed to his attack. In this way, it is extremely difficult for him to avoid your counterattack. In brief, you should move whenever your opponent starts to move.

There should be no pure blocking as such. Your blocking should at least interrupt your opponent's attack, thereby making him hesitant to complete his attacking combination. Ideally, it can create a favorable situation for initiating a counterattack. Thus, jamming a punch or a kick at its earliest is highly recommended. In addition, when blocking, it is advisable to make use of a strong and hard part of your body, such as the elbow, knee, or shoulder.

The best way to deal with a faster opponent is to catch him on his attack. By making use of his attack, he is committed to his action, thus shortening the distance between you and, consequently, increasing your attacking speed and power, because both your body momentums meet. This also makes it impossible for him to avoid your attack. Therefore the-proper angulations and timing of your counterattack with proper blocking are important in order to take full advantage of the chance his attack gives you.

---Dr. Mizhou Hui

What I am finding very interesting here is the similarities between Bagua, Xingyi and Sanda. And I am not seeing the same strength of similarity between Taiji and bagua and yet as far as the so-called internal styles go they are considered closest.

Taiji I find

Song of Push hands excerpt

If he does not make a move
I do not make a move
If he makes the slightest move,
Then I move with him
It is like being loose, but not totally loose
It is like being extended but not totally extended
When you are not using energy
You still use Yi
Whether you are turning, moving
Shifting or stepping

I need to go and find some of my old Taiji books that have some of the old songs in them and see if I can find more similarity. Currently I am referring only to what I have in Tung Ying Jie's Red book, since it is what I am focusing my Taiji training on.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyiquan

Techniques come out like a pouncing dragon. Lift the hand like an eagle grasping, the form maintains the characteristic of chicken leg, it moves through the form like a locust, its rising forms are like shouldering a yoke

-- Dai Long Bang as translated by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell

 

[Steel Tiger]

I see what you mean about the similarities between bagua and xingyi.

I have been sitting here trying to find something that has an equivalent in taiji. Its not easy as my taiji classics and concepts knowledge is limited, but I think I have a few things.

Song 1 from the 36 Secret Songs

Empty the chest, pull up the head, and settle down the waist. Firm the thighs, control the knees, and grab the ground strongly. Sink the shoulders, drop the elbows, and extend the fornt palm. Both eyes must look through the tiger's mouth.

Song 27 from 36 Secret Songs

What is the saying of the mutual supporting of the hard and the soft? It has never known difficulty if the hard and the soft mutually assist each other. Hard and soft should use the Qian and Kun hands. This enablesone to open the heaven, expose the earth, and cause the great wave in the ocean.

Song 28 from 36 Secret Songs

When the opponent is hard and I am soft, this is the right way. However, if I am hard and the opponent is soft, the method is also good. The hard and the soft mutually coordinate and win control from the waist. The conflict is decided on whose stepping is better.

Song 7, Hand Method, from 48 Secret Songs

Partial and sunk, then will follow the opponent; double layering, then stagnant. External is hard and internal is soft, like the posture of holding a spear. When coming sideways, you push, and when attacked from inside you hook; then your body has a master. You only look for the sticking hands with the following of the waist and the abdomen.

From Six Combinations and Four Extremities

What are the six harmonies? They are the total names of both the internal and external three harmonies. The internal three harmonies are the Xin and the Yi harmonizes, Yi and Qi harmonizes, and Qi and Li harmonizes. These are the three internal harmonies.

The external three harmonies are the shoulders and hips harmonize, the elbows and the knees harmonize, the hands and the feet harmonize. When the internal and the external unify, it is called "Six Harmonies."

These various quotes are a lot like some of the things I remember from some of the taiji classics I have read. They are not the same, I think because of the greater emphasis on continual movement in bagua. But it is essentially about correct body position, proper utilisation of hard and soft, and the harmonising of internal and external elements.


Thought you might like this one (by the way the three sections refers to the parts of the arm - hands, forearms, and upper arms).

Song 4, Elbows, from Baguazhang Secret Songs of Attacking Methods

When the elbow strikes, the opponent cannot see the shape of the three sections. Strike straight forward, sideways, or diagonally, all accurate. The head acts like a tiger and a panther, the Yi is on the elbows. Boring the woods and crossing each other, the rear elbow is covering the heart.

 

[Xue Sheng]

These various quotes are a lot like some of the things I remember from some of the taiji classics I have read. They are not the same, I think because of the greater emphasis on continual movement in bagua. But it is essentially about correct body position, proper utilisation of hard and soft, and the harmonising of internal and external elements.

Those are similar to taiji but one question what is ment by "double layering" From Song 7

Thought you might like this one (by the way the three sections refers to the parts of the arm - hands, forearms, and upper arms).

Yup I like it, I was just reading something similar from Xingyi but I cannot find it at the moment also reminds me of "a punch is not just a punch"

More Xingyi, any of this sound familiar

The vital points of Xin Yi Quan include: Yin Yang, Five Elements, stiIlness and motion, rising and falling, advancing and retreating, substantial and insubstantial, hard and soft. Its profundity relies on the six harmonies:

--- Dai Long Bang

The Twelve Forms

Dragon, Tiger, Monkey, Horse, Alligator, Chicken, Eagle, Bear, Tai Bird, Snake, Chicken Hawk, Swallow

The Dragon is able to fold up its bones, the Tiger is brave enough to pounce upon its prey, the Monkey is able to roam freely over mountains, the Horse is able to kick with its hooves, the Alligator Is able to move on the surface of water with agility, the Chicken is fearless as it pecks, the Eagle is expert at grasping, the Bear has great strength at raising up vertically, the Tai Bird is able to hold its tail straight up, the Snake is able to slither through the grass, the Chicken Hawk is able to weave through the forest, the Swallow has the agility to brush the surface or the water.

--- Dai Long Bang

 

[Steel Tiger]

Those are similar to taiji but one question what is ment by "double layering" From Song 7

Double layering refers to mutual resistance. If your strength and your opponent's mutually resist each other, then your strength will be slow and stagnant.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just came across this I new Li Cun Yi was XIngyiquan but I did not know he was the first high level Xingyi guy to study Baguazhang

Li Cun Yi was born in 1847 died in 1922 at the age of 86.
Li was one of Liu Qi Lan's four most famous Xingyi students. He was also the first high-level Xingyiquan practitioner to study Baguazhang, learning the art directly from creator Dong Hai Chuan's disciple Cheng Ting Hua.